Anant Goenka: There is a perception that the last few years have not been the strongest for Maharashtra, that corruption was an issue. Would you agree and do you think that’s why you are taking on governance (as a priority)?

There’s always been corruption. It’s always been an issue and we have to fight it. I feel this issue can only be tackled by using technology.

Anant Goenka: Is it a more urgent issue today than it was some years ago?

For me, it has always been an urgent issue. If there is no transparency, your goverment cannot become efficient.

Vandita Mishra: Mumbai came to a standstill again due to the recent rain. Our urban systems are not designed to cope with extreme weather situations that increasingly arise due to climate change and global warming etc. But the second problem here is corruption —  it is also about the quality of development. The poor quality of the infrastructure points to a contractor-driven and not people-driven development. Do you think so?

Both are responsible. When we designed systems, we considered how much it has rained in the last 20 years, what is our average rain. And now you see there are more rain occurrences, and also look at its severity, due to climate change… The problem is that even before the monsoon started it had already rained and the infrastructure was not designed for it. It is due to the problems of infrastructure, design and also climate change. But corruption cannot be denied either. Things are changing but we still have some work to do in Mumbai.

(From left) Devendra Fadnavis, Chief Minister, Maharashtra; Tejas Bahirat, Director, TAB Group; Sourav Bhowmick, Assistant Vice President-Sales, Radico Khaitan

Vandita Mishra: You have taken bold positions in the past against corruption, you made it a theme of your politics and raised issues around it. But there are many individuals you earlier accused of corruption who are today in your Cabinet, like Ajit Pawar, Chhagan Bhujbal. How did this happen?

This is the reality of politics. In politics, you cannot move ahead by turning away from these things. After getting a full majority in 2019 and after it was announced that I will be the Chief Minister, hurdles were posed in my way. Even after the announcement, Uddhavji betrayed us, the Shiv Sena betrayed us. In politics, you have to find a way to survive. So we found a way. There was a right path but our companions strayed from that path. So we took along those we could and moved forward. That’s why I’ve always held on to my politics. I have followed this principle and have always upheld it. But when you work in politics, sometimes you have to compromise. But if I am the Chief Minister, then I won’t allow anyone in my Cabinet to do wrong. I can guarantee you that this government will work to stop corruption.

Anant Goenka: Has political opportunism changed compared to when you started? Or was it always like this?

It was always like this. Look at it as this sort of a cycle. See the politics of Maharashtra in 1978. Sharad Pawar formed a government just like this. Then if you look at 1992, Sharad Pawarji’s government did not have a majority and they broke the Shiv Sena and formed that government. At that time, Chhagan Bhujbalji went with him and by breaking the Shiv Sena he formed his own government. I think political opportunism is not new. It has always been happening. I think the political value has seen a devaluation. We have to accept this and we have to think about it.

Vandita Mishra: Those who observe you closely have seen another change in your political persona. In the beginning, your image was development-oriented. It still is, but of late your words have acquired a certain harshness. You have started talking about ‘love jihad’, your government has formed a love jihad committee. There seems to be a competition of sorts between hardliner BJP CMs like Yogi Adityanath and Himanta Biswa Sarma and you have joined the fray.

If there are issues based on facts, we should discuss them. If we bury them under the carpet, one day they will be exposed and then there will be an explosion. Earlier I, too, believed that all this talk about love jihad is an exaggeration. Then I got an unofficial study done on it. I have no objection to inter-caste or inter-religion marriage but when these marriages take place under false identities, when thousands of incidents started to appear, I realised there was a design behind it. This is not an issue of vote for me. I say this not to corner anyone or any particular religion or caste, this design is specifically weakening the country in many ways. Look at the way in which minorities in our country are being radicalised. You will say that you are talking about radicalisation, so you are polarising but I can only say that this is a fact and we will have to accept it. Love jihad is actually happening on the ground and we have to stop it.

(From left) Radha Goenka, Director, RPG Foundation; Anant Goenka, Vice Chairman, RPG Enterprises, Sandeep Runwal, Managing Director, Runwal Realty

Vandita Mishra: After the 2024 Lok Sabha elections, you said it was a contest between forces of anarchy and forces of nationalism, not between parties. If you label the entire Opposition as anarchist, does that not disrespect the Opposition?

If the Opposition fights us, we will welcome it. But where is the Opposition? If you look at the Lok Sabha elections, then who fought against us? The front called Bharat Jodo was set up by Rahul Gandhi. There were 180 organisations in it and among them were organisations which during Manmohan Singh’s government were counted among Left-wing extremist organisations or what are now commonly called ‘Urban Maoists’. That is why I call them anarchists. Now I come to the second point. Along with love jihad, there is also vote jihad. If you see the voting pattern in Maharashtra, see where the minorities are (and see) the kind of polarised voting that has taken place. That was vote jihad. Who did that? Anarchist forces did it. We are used to fighting against parties, it could be the Congress, the NCP or anyone else but we are not used to fighting these (other) forces. Anarchist forces go to the grassroot level. In the Lok Sabha elections, they were confusing people. I had to tell the nationalist forces to give a befitting answer to them. People chose the nationalist forces and gave us a huge majority.

Vandita Mishra: Nationalist forces mean RSS?

The RSS is definitely a nationalist force but there are other nationalist forces. We got them all to come together.

Vandita Mishra: In Pune, a 19-year-old is arrested and the college rusticates her because of an online post. The Bombay High Court has severely reprimanded your police and said that it shouldn’t have happened at all and that it is playing with the young woman’s life and career. How do you look at this?

Often when the police take some action the court feels that some of the actions are too much, it reprimands. And because of this we improve. We’ll get better! But when Operation Sindoor is going on, the girl writes against our Army or if one person writes in favour of Pakistan then emotions run high against such posts. The police have to take action. Now the action, is it less or more? The court decides this. If the court feels it is too much then we will accept it. It will help us improve next time.

Anant Goenka: Did your loyalty to your alliance force you to compromise your love for free speech in this whole comedian situation (Kunal Kamra) where there was an attack? Do you feel you had to show your friendship to your alliance more than you wanted to?

To ignore such people politically is much better. You by your actions increase their stature to a large extent. So politically, it is better to ignore them but many times what happens is that Shiv Sena and our own party are a little emotional. We are not practical politicians. So sometimes that emotion makes us react a little. They are getting more attention because of the reaction.

Anant Goenka: We’ve seen a complete transformation in Mumbai — the coastal road and the Metro to name a few. I will name an infrastructure project and you give us some sense of an update.

The Mumbai Metro

It will change mobility in Mumbai entirely. The best thing is that we already have created UMTA (Unified Metropolitan Transport Authority). So, for the entire Mumbai Metropolitan Region there will be one authority. All the transportation systems of Mumbai will be accessible on one card. We have already rolled out this single card; in six months it will be rolled out in the MMR region. Our plan is that within 200 metres and 300 metres, everybody should get at least one mode of public transport.

The Navi Mumbai Airport

It is almost complete and by August we will be able to open it. In the next three to four months we will complete the coastal road which joins Atal Setu to the new Mumbai airport. We are also constructing an elevated road from Thane to Navi Mumbai airport and a Metro from Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Airport to Navi Mumbai Airport. That metro will take at least five years.

NAINA (Navi Mumbai Airport Influence Notified Area)

We have already rolled out NAINA —its first IDP (Interim Development Plan) was cleared when I was CM in the last regime. Now the second IDP is almost there. In this new city — NAINA — certain thematic cities are coming up. We have built an edu city where we’d like to host at least 12 foreign universities. We are also creating a medicity, a sports city, a knowledge city.

Super waterways and water taxis

We will start our own water taxis. There is a single ticket. On the same ticket, you can travel in the metro, the monorail and the bus.

The Mumbai local train upgrades

The upgrade has happened quickly… We have developed amenities on a very large scale. We’ve introduced AC trains but people feel that the fare is too high. We have told Ashwiniji (Vaishnaw) to make all the trains air-conditioned and keep the same fare. He is thinking about it and perhaps will agree.

Virar-Alibaug Corridor

We should start it this year. Land acquisition needs to be done to build and that cost is Rs 22,000 crore… a bank is going to give us the money. Later we will acquire the land and start work on this.

Dharavi, looking at rehabilitation Building new cities is easy. What is difficult is urban rejuvenation. Dharavi is one of the world’s major urban rejuvenation projects. Around eight lakh people live here and 50 per cent of them were ineligible for this. But if we send four lakh people away calling them ineligible then we will only be preparing new slums. So this is the first project in which everybody who was ineligible is eligible. We are providing them rental housing of the same quality. After paying the rent they will become its owner. Mumbai’s business district is BKC (Bandra Kurla Complex) but this will be a new business district. There are 19,000 businesses in Dharavi and we decided that we will make them settle here. Dharavi is an urban transformation. Here, the poor will not be separated from the rich. It’s a mixed design.

Anant Goenka: The Worli underground metro is brand new but was flooded after only 200 mm of rain. Do you think  quality is a problem?

This underground metro was operational on 16 out of17 stations. The 17th station was half inaugurated. If we didn’t inaugurate the station, we could not complete this stretch. It was an accident and we were not prepared for it. The rain came early and was heavy. They had only made a bund which couldn’t stop the rain. The work will be completed in August. And these kind of issues will never happen again.

Anant Goenka: I spoke to Eknath Shindeji at a Lok Satta event when he was the CM and I got him to commit that he is not going to build anything on the Mumbai Turf Club. Will you stand by that commitment?

A 100 per cent.

Anant Goenka: What about coastal road? Will we never see construction there?

There is no question about it.

Anant Goenka: Why we are all sceptical is because the environment does not seem to be an election issue.

You are right, but I don’t think this will remain so for long because there is a growing awareness. For the new generation, environment is a concern. It may not be an election issue now but it will gradually become one.

Devendra Fadnavis, Chief Minister of Maharashtra (right) in conversation with Vandita Mishra, National Opinion Editor, The Indian Express and Anant Goenka, Executive Director, The Indian Express Group

QUICK QUESTIONS

Identity or welfare – which of these have grown in effectiveness as an election tool

Welfare.

One thing Mumbai should learn from Delhi. And one thing Delhi can learn from Mumbai

There are 10 things Delhi should learn from Mumbai. I don’t see a single thing Mumbai can learn from Delhi. I feel Delhi can learn from Mumbai’s discipline. People in Mumbai stand in a line to catch a bus or taxi. Very few vehicles jump lanes.

Why don’t we put more buses in Mumbai?

If we compare ourselves to any global city, Mumbai has the least number of buses. We’ve ordered 10,000 e-buses but the supply is slow. But things are looking up now.

All these need money. Is it right that the state finances are a problem?

They are always a problem. Recently we decided to put $ 100 billion in infra. For 50 billion we got a deal from Indian financial institutions. The rest we will raise from foreign institutions.

The last time you did something fiscally irresponsible, but populist.

Many things.

One strategic advantage Maharashtra has over Gujarat in getting foreign investment?

Maharashtra has always been the leader in getting FDI. There have been years when it was higher than the investment of Gujarat, Karnataka, Tamil Nadu and Delhi put together. International investors have a lot of confidence in Maharashtra.

One strategic advantage Gujarat has over Maharashtra in getting foreign investment?

Gujarat has created a brand image. We have to admit that. It helps them.

One thing you admire about Sharad Pawar?

Many things. One thing is his consistency. Whether he wins or loses he continues working. Even at this age.

Mumbai or Nagpur: where do you feel more at home?

Of course, Nagpur.

Mumbai and Delhi, which is your preferred second home?

Mumbai.

The South, the Hindi heartland, Nagpur or Mumbai: where do you think the BJP’s next party president will come from?

Oh my God. He/she can come from anywhere.

Bureaucrats and ministers, whose advice do you trust first?

It depends. There are times when bureaucrats have more technical knowledge, so their advice is right. But there are times when ministers know the ground reality so their perspective is also correct. So, you have to balance.

To play a quick game. Ajitji (Pawar) and Eknathji (Shinde), who do you think are better at communicating?

Frankly, they are not communicative.

Ajitji and Eknathji: Who is better at managing natural calamities?

Eknathji loves to manage and enter into any such situation.

Ajitji and Eknathji: Who is better at local body elections?

The BJP

Ajitji and Eknathji: who is better at infrastructure and tendering processes?

They don’t do the tenderising processes. But on infra, all of us are together. We require a lot of infra and we need to create it at a great speed.

Ajitji, Eknathji: whose advice would you take on difference of opinion with the party high command?

None. Because I know my party’s high command. They don’t know.

You have to drive to Delhi and you have to pick one person for the passenger seat. You’ve got two options: Savarkar and Gandhi. Who would you pick?

If it’s a fast car, then I will take Savarkarji. If it is a normal, slow vehicle, then I’ll take Gandhiji.

Radha Goenka
Director, RPG FoundationRadha Goenka
Director, RPG Foundation

In Mumbai, we have the Mithi River and Mangroves. they are not protected enough. You mentioned trees on the coastal road — is it an opportunity? Because even if we have about 80 per cent native trees, it could really change the environment.

I agree with you. On the Coastal Road, there have to be native trees because they will create a great ecosystem. If we can rejuvenate Mithi, that will change the entire environment. We have been saying this for 25 years, but now we have started the real action. The biggest advantage Mumbai has is the Sanjay Gandhi National Park. Such a forest is hardly expected in a city, but it is there in Mumbai. We need to conserve all these things. They will have to be rejuvenated and we will do that.

Pratik Agarwal
Chairman, Serentica Renewables

Pratik Agarwal
Chairman, Serentica Renewables

Maharashtra has a huge potential for wind power. A lot of developers have been facing issues in the east of Maharashtra; in places like Solapur and Beed. Your office has helped in the last month to solve this. But we hope that more can be done.

Renewable energy has been an important issue on which our government is working. By 2030, 52 per cent of the energy will come from renewable sources. You are right about Maharashtra, where wind and solar (energy) companies have been facing problems, especially due to the local mafia, but now we have tightened all of the things and I’ve told the police to apply the strictest sections and punish anyone creating problems. The problem is largely resolved, but if there are any issues, do tell us and we will help you.