‘Creamy layer shouldn’t get quota. Its inclusion will delay the process of reaching poor OBCs’

VEERAPPA MOILY: Reservation is not the ultimate solution to the problems of Indian society. It has been conceived out of contingency from time to time and it is not unknown phenomenon for the entire world. Many countries have tried to solve their problems of inequity in their own ways, depending on the local situation. Some developed countries acted early, like America which passed the Equal Opportunity Bill in 1961 when John F Kennedy was the President. They named it affirmative action. The corporate sector in the US came to the conclusion with time that diversity is good for business. They said affirmative policy is good business.

Unlike in the US, India has no racial discrimination, but it has caste-based discrimination, practiced for centuries. Our constitution does not recognise caste as a unit but it has classified it as class. Class is nothing but a group of castes, in our context. In Karnataka, for example, when there was no such reservation, Justice K S Hegde came to a judgment that showed one particular community occupied 95 per cent seats in colleges and jobs. As back as in 1916, a committee was set up to look into this concentration of opportunity and rewards. There were a number of committees like the Kalelkar and the Mandal committees.

The first amendment to the Constitution in 1951 related to other backward classes. One argument against reservation now is that we will be perpetuating the caste system. We are also accused of continuing the inequality this way. The issue to look at is how reservation has helped the backward classes. They ask whether caste system has been compromised after the introduction of reservations. I will not say that reservation has totally eradicated it but it has definitely reached and helped the target groups.

Education is a means to eradicating the caste system — a system that came into being as one community pursued an occupation for generations, for centuries. This has disappeared. With the spread of education, social and economical profile of the people and communities has changed.

Butat the same time, I firmly believe that reservation should be reviewed after every five or 10 years. I hope integration among castes will happen. And even though the beneficiaries may not admit it, quotas have helped them.

Personally, I feel the creamy layer should be excluded from the benefits of reservation, as their inclusion will delay the process of reaching the actual target.

SEEMA CHISHTI: There is a policy in America which is a complete opposite of ours. They feel the creamy layer should not be excluded because if prevailed groups develop within a community, they help the overall development. The US government selects them and helps them grow faster. Why is this not the case with the upper castes in India?

As far as SC/STs are concerned, you know they are not prosperous enough to belong to the creamy layer. As for OBCs, there has to be some market adjustment at the entry level. Once this is ensured, the performance of the OBCs will also go up. I have studied four cases and found that once OBC students enter school, they perform better than general category students. Their first-class and distinction percentages have been better.

SHUBHAJIT ROY: The Oversighting Committee has failed to take bold decision of increasing teachers’ salaries. Only the institutes which do not get grants from the government are allowed to increase the salaries up to the market level. Has not the Committee disappointed them and set a negative precedent?

We have extensively deliberated on this question. Government grants to institutions like IITs and IIMs are not their only source of funding. These institutes get funds from their alumni, too. The funds can also be given as part of remuneration. Besides, they also get fees. We favoured giving financial autonomy to them in our recommendations. They are also free to recruits teachers.

VARGHESE K GEORGE: The amount of money you have recommended for the expansion of Delhi University is said to be too miserly. How did you compute the amount and do you think it will be sufficient?

There were five groups for institutes of technology, management, health, agriculture and central universities. For Delhi University, we went by the recommendation of the fifth group. The V-C of DU also called on me and I told him that if the amount is inadequate, then the matter could be incorporated in the detailed project report.

SHUBHAJIT ROY: With exams just six months away, the central universities are supposed to implement 27 per cent reservation in humanities this year itself. Do you think they have sufficient time to build required infrastructure?

Again, we went by the recommendations of the above group. But we are flexible. If an institute says it can’t implement 27 per cent reservation at one go, we can give them time. We have a pragmatic approach to it.

VARGHESE K GEORGE: During the anti-reservation protests, some autonomous institution spoke against the stated government stand? Is the right to dissent part of their autonomy? How do you define autonomy?

We have categorically stated our stand on autonomy regarding finance, management, and faculty. The work of the government is to lay down policies and the institutions are supposed to follow it with implementation. These roles cannot be mixed up. The institution cannot decide whether to give reservation or not.

SONU JAIN: What do you have to say about religion-based dispensation of social benefits, including reservation?

Indian society has to be taken as a whole, irrespective of religions. A disadvantaged Hindu suffers as much trauma as people from any other religion. For instance, if a Hindu from a community embraces Islam or Christianity, it does not put end to his all his problems.

Muslims are the largest minority in our country and they are in a very bad state. When I was the chief minister of Karnataka, I set up a committee to look into the social, educational and economical status of Muslims after the demands for reservation were made from the community. You will be surprised to learn that the findings of the committee were similar to those of the Sachar panel: They found the status of Muslims on par with SC/STs.

A large number of people are deprived of basics of life and they deserve to be promoted. We cannot leave them out. This will lead to unrest in the society. There was a draft article in the original Constitution, which had a provision for giving reservation to the minorities, including Muslims. However, it was abandoned after Partition. This might be due to the experience India had in 1947. Just because Muslims have a different faith, they cannot be overlooked. The LTTE rose in Sri Lanka because Tamils were not given their rights, and today we have this 25-year civil war there.

MANINI CHATTERJEE: The break-up between the Congress and Janta Dal (S) in Karnataka has paved the way for the BJP. Would you like to work more in Karnataka, which was once the bastion of the Congress, to deal with the crisis in the party, rather than at the Centre?

The failure was partly because of our mistakes. But it is more due to the opportunistic politics of H D Deve Gowda. I am first a political animal, a nd Karnataka is part of my agenda and in my domain of conscience.

UNNI RAJEN SHANKER: But why is it that since you left as chief minister, you have been out of state politics? Plying a bigger role in Delhi, are you?

Sometimes you are asked to play a role in national and regional politics. There is no such rigidity that once you have been in national politics you cannot be called back to the state. I have had my innings in various capacities for over 20 to 30 years.

UNNI RAJEN SHANKER: Why is it that though DMK is a part of Congress-led UPA government, the Congress has not joined hands with them in Tamil Nadu?

This is the first time in four decades that a Dravidian party in Tamil Nadu was reduced to a minority, or we can say, was not able to touch the magic figure. The Congress discussed the matter with DMK leaders and expressed its willingness to join the government because that would provide more stability to the government. We are still waiting for the reply and they have not given us any negative one, yet.

SEEMA CHISHTI: Referring to the controversy surrounding the installation of MGR’s statue at Parliament House, neither the PM nor Sonia Gandhi went there. It seems that the DMK has been successful in bullying the Congress?

I am not involved in such politics. I do not know what were the issues involved in this case. It may be the attitude of Jayalalithaa.

MANINI CHATTERJEE: It’s the first time the BJP has formed a government in Karnataka. What do have to say about the rise of the BJP and the VHP there?

The BJP has come to power in Karnataka riding emotional issues like Ayodhya temple and Dutta Peetha. These issues can be cashed in on for a short duration only. I think the rise of the BJP in Karnataka is like bubbles, which will soon burst.

The secular character of the Deccan plateau will never accept the BJP. The overwhelming majority of backward classes and the minorities is also against the BJP. For example, Kerala and Tamil Nadu are very religious but the BJP has never been liked there. The BJP will never make an inroad into the south.

VARGHESE K GEORGE: Do you regret favouring the entry of Karunakaran to the UDF in Kerala? Is his political career over?

I cannot say Karunakaran’s innings as a politician has come to end. As for his entry into the Congress, his statements were responsible for the break-up.

CITHARA PAUL: What do you have to say about Karuna-karan’s allegation that Sonia Gandhi had a role in the ouster of NCP from the LDF in Kerala?

It is totally baseless. We have no role in the affairs of other political parties like the NCP. Actually, Sonia Gandhi sent me to Kerala and we were contemplating taking a senior leader like Karunakaran back but he has not properly reciprocated.

CITHARA PAUL: What do you think about sting operations, as one was done on you, too?

It should not be forged, as it happened in my case. I think if someone wants to use as string operation as evidence, then it has to be technologically proven beyond any doubt.

MANINI CHATTERJEE: An RJD MP recently demanded in Parliament that there should be reservation for backward classes in Central Schools and Novodaya Vidyalayas as well. Do you support it?

Yes, I think there should be reservation at school level too.

SHUBHAJIT ROY: Some MPs have demanded action against educational institutes that failed to fulfill SC/ST seats. Do you favour punitive action against such institutes?

I don’t think punitive action is the solution to this problem. It should be tackled at administrative level.

VARGHESE K GEORGE: Is it not ironical that the institutes run by minorities will no longer provide reservation to SC/STs once the quota law comes into force? Do you think that the minority institutes should try to provide reservation to SC/STs from their community?

Your point is valid and I agree with you. But Article 30 of the Constitution says the minority institutes are free to take their own decision. We cannot ask them to do this and that.

SEEMA CHISHTI: You have referred to America’s affirmative action and the support from corporate houses that felt diversity is good for business. Do you think the pro-quota lobby has failed to convince the people of north India that affirmative action is good?

Yes, I must say it has been a failure on the part of state governments in the north. Today, the bigger contributors to the economy are from south, while many of the northern ones are called “bimaru states”. The reason for the relative prosperity there is spread of education and affirmative action taken by the southern states long back.

AMANDEEP SHUKLA: How long will we continue to give reservation to a particular community. It has been around 50 years already.

I have earlier said that reservation has benefited people. But it does not mean that we keep including people without excluding those who have already benefited. Reservation is not the only means to tackle the problem of backwardness, but we only seem to talk about the other means while quotas continue.