‘I am a peripatetic poet’

•Like an occasional poet.

Yes

•You remember that line from Kabhi Kabhi …Amitabh Bachchan’s. Mein pal tho pal ka shayar hoon.

Bas yahi baat hein. Pal tho pal ka shaayar hoon.

•And I believe most of these pals are on board airplanes

Absolutely. Most of these written on the cell phone.

•So you wrote your whole book of poetry on your cell phone

Absolutely. From May of this year to July of this year. All of them. Except for one or two which I had written earlier. One on Vajpayeeji. As it was written earlier, it’s in the records of the Rajya Sabha…..but other than that most of them written…..

•You remember the lines from that one

Dear atalji I must confess It is time to clear up all this mess

•Go on

Let us (something) deal with unfinished tasks and see the man behind the mask December 6th this nation saw gross violation of the law In retrospect you said this meant an expression of national sentiment

•So that was from a poet to a poet because even he was more than an occasional poet.

Oh yes.

•Haar nahi maanoga…raar nahi taanoga

Bilkul bilkul

•Ye geet mein yaa gaatha hoon

Geet bhi nahi gaathe the lekin poore tarah se unki poetry ubarkar nahi aayi

•Aur aap ko thabi shuruaat hei. It’s just the beginning.

Mein doosri bhi thaayar kar raha hoon.

•So you must be really fast with sms to write these and you must have a good phone

Very good phone

•And I think your phone company should have you as their brand ambassador.

Actually this tells you about the enormous uses of a cell phone. Because if you sit down start writing poetry, you have to scratch out words, you have to rewrite it, you have to crumble the paper, throw it in the waste paper basket. At the end of it you are frustrated. With the cell phone, you can erase it anytime, you can go back to it and erase it.

•And if you really like it, you can send it to somebody just like that.

Absolutely. There is a poem on that. Don’t send me an sms to tell me that you love me I do not want to be that quickly erased from your memory

•But you know sms now has a naughty reputation in those matters.So how did it start?

Well, it started really as entertainment. I was on this international flight, there was too much time on my hand, I had done my work….

•You don’t watch movies on flights?

No

•When do you watch movies?

No. I don’t watch movies on flights. I mean, I don’t. Movies I watch with my wife.

•So you wrote the first one on your flight when you were bored?

Yeah, I wrote the first few. And I was really looking at India when I was on an out-bound flight. And I wrote the poem ‘Nostalgia’, which is the first poem in the book about the out-bound flight.What I think about India when I am outward-bound. That is the first poem in the book. And that was written on that flight. It says this very thing – I miss the smell of burning waste The wake up call of temple bells And vendors who I chatter with Bargaining as they sell

•And when did this sort of morph into political poetry?

Well, you know, when you start writing….

•Vajpayee is one…

Vajpayee’s was written earlier and it is on the records of the rajya Sabha because I recited it in Rajya Sabha. So therefore I didn’t feel hesitant to actually publish it because already it stood published in a way. But all the others, I was reflecting on contemporary India and it is really a satire on contemporary India. And at the same time it also has a mix of what the argumentative Indian is.

•You haven’t spared the media either?

I haven’t spared the media. I have spared anybody. I haven’t spared the bureaucracy.There is a poem called ‘Smooth Sailing’ as to how a file moves in the bureaucratic system. When the minister wants it to move it quickly, how the Newton’s law of gravity slows it down. And it says: The bureaucrats have finally tuned Newton’s law of motion Every action must be opposed with an equally robust reaction

•Well George Fernandes used to describe it as their ability to put a file in orbit

Absolutely…yeah..yeah…I talk about gravity and how the file they don’t want to move goes at the bottom of the pile

•Does it come from your experience as a minister also?

Oh, absolutely. Without a doubt.

•And they try their best to get around a minister

They try their best to get around a minister. You know, actually, it is very difficult to circumvent what they spin around you. It’s impossible. They start quoting this rule, start quoting that rule. They would say this committee is meeting, this committee has done this. And you say, why cant this move forward?

•And implications….

And implications, and I talk about the implications also. And at some point they say, you can exercise your power but it might get you to be an accused. So you say “Ok, fine. Forget it. Why should I get into this problem?”

•And if I remember your poem, it tells you, all these are the rules, you can overrule them at your own risk.

Exactly. You exercise your omnibus powers to overrule but if you do that you could be an accused.

•Yeah, and then I am out of it, you are on your own…have you seen that in your personal experience also

Well. No. In my ministry, actually, people do co-operate with me. But yes I have seen it. Whenever there is an issue which is futuristic – “No, we want to change the system. I want India to be a modern India. Or the Met department to be a modern department in six months or one year…” I just cannot do it.

•Because everything is thrown at you including national security…

Lots of things. I mean geo-spatial technology for example is the next great revolution that is going to take place in India. And we’ve been fighting for four years to have geo-spatial technology. Accept it as an accepted form of technology which will be the building block of planning processes.

•What is geo-spatial technology? Explain it to the idiot.

You use satellite imagery, combine it with videography and aerial photography. And then you use software to actually look at the ground. And when you do that you can fill all the data on the ground. And when you look at that data from afar you realise what the true picture is.

•And other countries have done it….

Other countries have done it but of course ours is far more complicated. I can for example put all the agricultural data in this country which is on the ground in the geo-spatial digital network and allow people to access it.

•Sounds like a wonderful idea. But why can’t you do it?

Well, first of all, the defence ministry said you cannot do the satellite imagery and give it to the public. Or in 90% of India, there were security concerns.

•The people of India may invade Ladakh!

(laughs) Not that. But they say there are strategic implications. Well, luckily we had a minister who took this forward. That was Pranab Mukherjee who was the then defence minister. He agreed with me. So we took it forward. But even now, the data we can actually work on is only 60% of India. Forty percent of India is still not available.

•Beause all the border areas, coastal areas as usual will take an hour….

Absolutely. Now the question is the people in the coast need development. How do you develop unless you have data on the ground that you can see.

•And that is when you can go to Google Earth and figure out exactly where your TV antenna is located…

All that is available on Google but we can’t give it to our people.

•And this resistance is bureaucratic or political?

Mostly bureaucratic. And then government departments don’t want to share their data. Space says I don’t want to share my data with you…

•We must be the only country in the world, the only democracy in the world that keeps it Met data classified. A lot of the Met data….

Well, there are some concerns there. If you don’t keep….especially… seismic data classified…..well, of course, that’s not necessary now but at a time when we hadn’t done the tests then people could find out whether you were actually going forward with the tests or not.

•Would you read us a few lines from your tribute to the bureaucrat?

Okay… ‘Smooth Sailing’… That is a very interesting poem. Our bureaucrats have finally tweaked Newton’s famous law of motion Positive actions must be opposed with a robust negative reaction Policy prescriptions when in place the Minister states with clarity This slow down movement of the files taking recourse to law of gravity Those requiring urgent action kept at the bottom of the pile Prepare a detailed list of objections which actions cannot reconcile Convoluted archaic rules not understanding simple facts Persuade the minister to invoke omnibus powers to relax Then opine,that such authority if he dares to ever use

Has the potential of making him a suspect if not an accused Most of our national projects will acquire enough maturity with time Moving forward at snail’s pace given the bureaucratic mind At the time of implementation all essential parameters change Bureaucrats then advise the Minister to start all over again.

•By that time hopefully there is another minister…

Absolutely. (laughs) Who doesn’t know….

•Like in your real business, a judge gets transferred and the case starts again…

Absolutely

•So delay becomes a weapon

Delay becomes a weapon and not only that in the ultimate analysis India cannot compete. Ultimately, in the 21st century, we need to empower ourselves to compete.

•I know you have had trouble dealing with bureaucracies in other ministries. For example, your efforts to get university status for your laboratories, say Zyher labs…

This is something I have been wanting for a long time – deemed university status. Everywhere in the world you go to research labs, you find academics and research. We call it translational research. People do academic work, people also see what is happening on the ground in the lab. And then both those minds come together.

•And if your labs get deemed university status they can issue Ph.D degree

Absolutely. China has now produced 15,000 Ph.Ds. We produce less than 5,000. And some years ago China was at par with us.

•And these objections are bureaucratic or territorial or political….

I don’t want to comment on that. But you have the objections and it’s not moved forward.

•Complicated?

It’s very complicated. Now you can’t fight a battle on a daily basis

•They can be bureaucratic, territorial, political but they are not logical.

Entirely illogical. The logic here is let me tell you…. What I hear is, if we allow this to happen in our labs then most of the good university professors will move out of the university system

•The idea then is to improve the universities…

Absolutely

• …and compete, because all over the world now universities compete for faculty

If your life is based on what is going to happen as a result of competition then you might as well not compete. And then you can sort of say to yourself that well I am destined to be mediocre

•Another bunch of people who have frustrated you, the Left, a little bit. You have friends there. I believe you have one, which is on your phone

(laughs) Yes, I have one on my phone. The Left, I hope they have a sense of humour.

•They certainly do.

Okay. Good. So then I think I shall recite this.

•They might even respond in verse.

Good. So…(Reads from his cell phone) The Left has suffered for a lifetime now, of an ailment they can’t diagnose The symptom however that troubles them most is that they can’t see beyond their nose

•Carry on…

Doc Basu warned them of the precipice ahead, gave them medicine to prevent them fall The healer Surjeet, with practical tips, weaned them away from the Das Kapital They were then advised to see an optician for a possible vision transplant For an alternative way to prosperity for the poor who suffer from wants Manmohan, the doc, had a solution in mind, promised to do whatever he can They had to listen to him beyond the regime called the common minimum programme To see beyond the nose we must energise the mind, clogged, confused and unfreeDoc Manmohan believed, after studies revealed,that the way out was the 1…2…3 And then it goes on….

• (laughs) Read the rest also…

You want me to read the rest also?

•Because it’s not in the book

It’s not in the book. No. And…Convincing those with their vision impaired, earning their ire and opprobrium Was no mean task, for what we needed most was in a short supply, of uranium This fissile material with our reactors in place would aid in clearing the mind But fossilized thoughts, ranted and raved, saw Opposition completely blind Frustrated he thought that in changing tack he had an outside chance to succeed Without energy supply his patience would die Though the afflicted needed time to concede With objectives achieved their mind will mutate They will begin to relearn as they see our actions will display Clearing the way for our energy autonomy

•That’s not in the book but there are a couple of others in the book that are political. I see the one on the 123….the deal

And the 123 one says…. that’s a very interesting one…and I’ll just read one paragraph of the 123 because I think you will enjoy it…..it says…The Indo-US nuclear deal now a bone of contention With the BJP’s turn about and the Left’s apprehension Imperialist designs cited as reason for suspicion One hoped left the ideology had evolved through transition Dismantling of the Berlin wall, the fall of the Iron Curtain No Gorbachev of Indian mould, after Basu the future uncertain

•And you have taken quite a dig at the media as well

Oh yes

•The TV in particular, I must say you have spared print a little

Yes…TV. Yes…TV….TV media, generally the press. I have also taken a dig at lawyers.

•Right

You know, the press and…. I compare journalists and lawyers and what they have in common. There’s a whole poem on that

•What does that say?

Well, that’s a very interesting one. (That talks about….let me see….sorry…can’t really find it at the moment…..I can’t really find it at the moment…but there is one on that which is very…very very interesting)

•And journalists you have been tough on

Yeah. Journalists I have been tough on.

•With The Press. Right here (pointing to the book).

With the press. Yes …yes…You want me to read a bit of that…? Okay..

•You accuse the media of being completely driven by TRP

That’s right. Free press challenge today by corporate world Making news like other products commercially sold Advertising revenue drives content for gratification Commercial interest shamelessly receive undue articulation Electronic media through images that sensationalise In the process their credibility seriously jeopardize Bollywood geeks, cricket icons make headline news What stars foretell, conman tricks meant to infuse TRPs of channels, soap operas get hits for you News that matter, serious content, of limited value Online information, instant coffee, no time to brew Real meaty stories bypassed without much ado Opinions crafted with analysis really see a responsible press inaudity And far from free

•And I see next to that “To trust or not to trust”

22nd of July, a day to remember for both betrayal and trust We won the motion in the midst of commotion The victory clearly robust

•And is there any reference to those wads of currency notes?

Yes. Very much so. Very much so.

•You are not hiding from that

Not at all, not at all. In fact, this is what I say. It says…That might not have suited for all those who wanted to embarrass the government that they Politics lost its veneer, as it would appear wads of notes on vulgar display We were all in a stupor, felt cheated and let down by those we hold in esteem Can’t compromise the nation by belittling its systems not upholding its glory pristine The government had won, democracy the loser and politics in utter disarray This temple of justice invaded by avarice Yet the nation will still have its way

•So tell me, Kapil, when you were writing this did you ever tell anybody – your Cabinet colleagues, party leaders that I am doing this…

No..no…

• So this is really a surprise to all of them

Absolutely…absolutely…and it’s my take…It’s my take on contemporary India. It’s a satire on contemporary India.

•Now, don’t tell me you wrote this doodling on the side of Cabinet meetings

No…never..never….this was all on flights. Mostly. Sixty percent on flights and forty percent at home. In my free time

•And most of it on the phone

Ninety-five percent on the phone

•Now, tell me, which are your own personal favourites? Not just political ones but…

There are lots of interesting ones… My days when I was in college and I was wooing somebody. Neena, my first wife. That’s a favourite. And it says…the chowkidaar…. the lovers and the chowkidaar…that’s a favourite poem of mine. Let me read that. Every time you met me, your arrival woefully late I stood somewhat embarrassed outside your college gate Those who saw me waiting smiled knowingly at me A site that they had witnessed ever so frequently You noticed not my protests and with an open smile Expressed regrets that yet again I had waited for a while We waited for the sun to set to hold each other tight Nocturnal prowl the chowkidaar sentinel of the night Spotted with his flashy torch both in disheveled state Ensuring that potential sinners must never fall from grace

•So you did get caught by the chowkidaar?

(laughs) Yes…yes..absolutely…And that point in time, this was the usual story.

•And I also see there is some social commentary…. You know, about socializing on Oxford Street

Oh absolutely. Meeting in London. Meeting in London is a …..

•Because everybody who has been trying to avoid you runs into you as

Absolutely. Absolutely. And there is a spoof on that. As to what happens when people meet in London. And let me just tell you about it. That’s an interesting one. And also there is one on inflation. And that’s a very interesting one. About inflation. Let me read the one Meeting in London. I dread to meet at Oxford street The same old faces exchanging usual graces Backslapping each other How are you brother Enjoying the weather. All family together. Away from the heat, Holiday complete And wife is busy on a shopping tizzy Makes her happy Buying for child They all going wild Picking up clothing Almost for nothing Best part is, sir This is like ghar

•You see what’s happened actually with London is, that for the upper crust, London has not become what Shimla and Mussorie used to be 25 years back

Absolutely…absolutely…

•Easy travel, all that change

Absolutely

•So tell me, Kapil what happens now? Are you expecting….do you really think people will take it with a sense of humour? Or you expect….

I hope so. I hope so. If people don’t have a sense of humour life is not worth living.

•And you are even hoping Mayawati has some sense of humour?

Oh …absolutely…She should. Everybody should have a sense of humour

•Read us the one on Mayawati

No…no…no….

• Don’t be chicken.

I am not being chicken. Am not being chicken at all. I will read it. Because this is meant for another publication.

•But read a couple of lines from that.

Sure…sure…sure…

•Because we will hear a lot about her.

It starts with…Maya, maya everywhereWith a spotted carrot link

•I can figure now why you don’t want to read more of that just now. Kapil, the wonderful thing is that you’ve had a tough ministry. Tough because it’s a ministry where the establishment has been very strong. And it’s nearly impossible to bring about change, but you have brought about some change. In the middle of all that tough ministry and tough politics, also a young minister in our political system….

Yes…getting old actually

•It’s good to, not just keep your creative juices churning but also to keep your sense of humour.

Oh absolutely. You can’t possibly continue to be young if you are bogged down by what is happening around you. You have to find avenues to enthuse yourself and writing is just one of those things, you know, that one likes to do.

•Keep it that way Kapil. But poetry, let me tell you, is just what one would expect from the MP from Chandni Chowk. Because you come from the home of Ghalib and….

Thank you very much. Thanks.