‘I am not willing to believe that Muslims are behind all acts of terror in this country’

Mahmood Madani: You mentioned that I am the General Secretary of the Jamiat Ulama-i-Hind. I would just like to clarify, that I was, and, am not anymore. I am just a small worker of the organisation. This organization was founded in 1919 although we were working long before that in an unorganised way but it was felt that a formal organisation ought to be set up. So, in 1919, Jamiat Ulama-i-Hind (JUH) was formed.

In the first ever meeting of the organization, the first ever resolution that was proposed was of complete Aazadi. Till that time even the Indian National Congress used to talk about the internal power sharing with the British, but the JUH demanded complete freedom from the very first day.

Another specialty of this organisation was that we did not set up our shop separately on any communal basis even though at first glance we do appear very communal. I was on Delhi Airport waiting for a flight to Bombay and because it was the winter, I was wearing a sort of a pagdi (headgear). So, a small boy tells his mother, “Mother, look Bin laden is going.” So, when he said Bin laden, I turned around and thought he is definitely referring to me. That’s why I said that at first glance, we do appear a tad communal, but our ancestors have never operated on communal basis. Our understanding is that our religion is not in conflict with people who follow any other religion. There is no conflict between on or other religion because the Quran clearly states ‘tumahara deen tumhaare saath, hamaara deen hamaare saath.’ What that means is that everyone has their religion, and everyone should follow it in their own way. There is no need for mudslinging and fighting with each other.

What I wanted to say was, our organisation is set up as a religious organisation but we have never conducted politics in the name of religion. Religious activities are a huge part of JUH, but that does not mean that we communalise any issue. So, when the country was on its way to freedom, a group emerged that demanded a separate homeland in the name of religion. We were the only organization in India that opposed this, of course there were individuals like Maulana Azad, who opposed the two-nation theory, but JUH was the only organisation. We did not oppose the theory on a political level but as a religious body- we considered it our religious duty and based our opposition on the Quran and Hadith and said it is an un-Islamic demand. Islam does not permit you to ask for a separate homeland, just on the basis of religion. Since Independence, JUH specialization has always been that it has not handled any issue on communal lines, even when Babri Masjid happened we made it an issue of justice, not religion. And if there’s any one organisation that is contesting this in court, from the beginning it is JUH. We have never bought this fight to the streets. We were very clear that we would fight in the courts and accept whatever decision emerges from there.

•Seema Chishti-: There have been many cases of terror over the last few days, and with each instance, there have been e-mails. Your name has been frequently mentioned in these mails. In one of the mails, JUH was mentioned and in another your name was mentioned. So how do you view this, when these people allege that you are a traitor to the community?

Madani-: In my view, most of these terror activities in India are being backed by agencies. There is an effort to create this view, that all these activities of terror, the world over, are being perpetrated by Islam and not by Muslims. Muslims can be good or bad, even I may do something wrong, but behind this is the philosophy of Islam and Quran. This is what people are trying to prove and then a few people rose in the name of Islam and declared this terror un-Islamic. Whatever terror is happening in the name of Jihad, is not actually Jihad, in fact, it is against Islam whoever the actual doer may be. So the greatest discomfort to the perpetrator is only because of this, because his ideology and his philosophy are being challenged by a voice that is considered an authority amongst the Muslims. So in such a case if they don’t threaten us, then who else will they threaten?

•Manish Chibber-: Have you ever felt alienated? A lot of Muslims chose to go to Pakistan but many stayed back. Do you think the ones who stayed back feel alienated? Do you feel like you are not treated as equals?

Madani-: Of course, that is happening. Over the last 62 years, Muslims are being punished for a sin they have not committed. Muslims had an option, they could leave, and, those who wanted to leave, left. Amongst the ones who stayed, were those who could not leave because they were helpless, they were poor, but a large number of people were those who thought it out and consciously chose to stay. Despite having the chance, the option, they did not leave. Now they are treated as a burden on this country. However, in my view they are, an asset. I have always said, Indian Muslims are an asset for the country, but those who run the Government, the political parties, treat Muslims like a burden on the country. In every sector and field Muslims have been systematically alienated, in a planned manner, through the political leadership.

•Manish Chibber: On the other hand, a large part of the Indian populace believes that a policy of appeasement is adopted in dealing with Muslims.

Madani-:That is just because they want to close all doors for justice for this community by using appeasement as an excuse.

•Suman K Jha-: Recently JUH and Deoband released a combined Anti-terror declaration and then you conducted anti-terror conferences and marches. This was viewed very positively all over the country, the media too, gave it a lot of importance. There has been talk about a few senior Congress Muslim leaders wanting to conduct similar anti-terror marches. So the first question is what made you feel that such a thing was important, considering you were the one who thought of these anti-terror marches and you tied up with Deoband for the same.

The second thing is that, the first declaration laid a lot of onus on the Indian Army. It was said that the Indian Army and the Indian state has been less than fair. The way they have treated the minorities, the Muslims has been unfair. So BJP and other Hindutva organisation picked up on this point and said this is all eyewash and it is meaningless to say so. However, the subsequent marches were perceived very positively. Please shed some light on this.

Madani-: This country has a history that is thousands of years old, this experience is nowhere in the world except here. Different cultures, religions and languages co-exist here, this whole dispute about partition of the country, sure, it did give us freedom, but it also created a huge problem for us. The country was suddenly divided along communal lines, land was also partitioned and so were people. People have tried to fill this void in different ways, sometimes they were successful, sometimes unsuccessful. But there has always been a certain level of suspicion between communities. Now whether it’s the political leadership or the bureaucratic leadership or the religious leadership or the masses, everybody’s biggest worry is terrorism. In dealing with terrorism there are two parts, the first part is, did we do our duty, the second part is of administration, whether they did their duty or not. Our duty is to raise our voices against this menace so that nobody can threaten our people and even those who follow other religions in India can do so without suspicion.

However, what is more important is that the administration’s attitude to deal with this has not been honest. The reason for that are their own limitations, they need an easy target. So there arose amongst the Muslims a section, which felt that they were being targeted in the name of terrorism. This section would have otherwise fought against terrorism. As far as the Deoband declaration is concerned it is very clear, now part of it was as you said it was. A lot of thought went into preparing it and we were very clear that we did not want any section of it to be misunderstood or misconstrued. However, those people who want this gap to stay between communities, they could not swallow it. Even if you ask them now, they will still think it is eyewash. JUH just had a working committee meet and we have decided that we have to keep this movement going, we cannot back down. We bought a fatwa, an oath of allegiance; this was a completely new concept. I had gone to UK and there I met Lord Khalid Hamid who is originally from Lucknow and Lord Adam Patel from Gujarat. So they said something unique, something we don’t realise here, they said there have been a lot of conferences and marches against terrorism by Muslims all over the world, but, this is the first instance where there was mass mobilization and Lord Hamid pointed out that this can happen only in India, it cannot happen anywhere else in the world. People assembled in lakhs and rallied against terrorism. So, I said, this happened because, we have had a history of living together and Indians- whether Hindus or Muslims have not forgotten that.

We now want to do this in Hyderabad, we did it in North India and now we want to conduct an anti-terrorism rally in Hyderabad, God willing we should be able to organise one by 8th or 9th November.

•Suman K Jha-: During the declaration and even after that you told us off-the-record that you were in touch with Congress leadership and L.K Advani too.

Madani-: When did I say that? What I could have said was that, if needed, we will talk to everyone. Till now we haven’t met anyone or spoken to them or done this because somebody told us to. It is our duty.

•Cithara Paul-: Yours is one of the most moderate voices amongst the Muslim community and your declaration against terrorism did make an impact in general society. Apart from these rallies and seminars, are you planning to do anything concrete at the ground level. Because the impact that you declaration made on the general population, I doubt whether the impact was the same on the educated Muslim community. We have had several instances recently so I really doubt its impact within the community.

Madani-: Yes, this is a very important question. What impact did this have on our own community, particularly the educated people? Whenever an initiative is taken the goal is to create an impact on both sides of the spectrum. I do not know how much impact this will have on everyone, but I do know that what could not be done anywhere else in the world, was done here. Lakhs of people assembled and took an oath together, they took an oath that they will fight against terrorism, they will not perpetrate, not or let any one else spread terror. Now if you want a quick result for things like this, it will be a tad difficult. There is a debate within our community about whether only Muslims are involved in these terrorist activities? Are others not involved? If answer your question and say yes the impact has been very good on Muslims and they will stop indulging in terror then, that means that, I am acknowledging that only Muslims are involved in these acts of terror even though yesterday two members of the Bajrang Dal were killed while assembling bombs. What happened in the Nanded? However, I am not making an issue out of this because if I do that then they will say that he wants to wash his hands off everything and pass on the blame to others. I am not willing to do that either. But I am not willing to believe either that all acts of terror in this country are caused by Muslim individuals or Muslim organizations. I cannot say that all of this is true or untrue. I just want to walk the middle path. I want to address both ends. I believe that there has been an impact and it will continue to happen. The first thing that needs to be done is that even if a few people have taken this path out of anger, we must not let their numbers rise. This we can do through this movement. You said the Media welcomed this move, please forgive me, but I would say the media did not give this burning issue as much importance as it deserved.

•Cithara Paul: Sir, there is also talk of a political Muslim party along the lines of the Indian Union Muslim League. Sir, do you think that such a party would be able to further the cause of the Muslim community rather than the community being just a vote bank for other political parties?

Madani-:No. Any party, whether it is Hindu or Muslim in this multi cultural society, if it is based along religious lines it will be harmful not only to the country but also to that community. We are against it. It is another thing that there is a huge gap of the political leadership, of political parties. Indians whether Hindus or Muslims, are tired with the political parties. There is a need of an honest political party and political leadership, which can take up core political issues without any vested interests, but there is no need for a religious political party.

•Anubhuti Vishnoi-: Do you think the Sachar community report will go a long way in addressing the needs of the community? Second question is about terrorism, do you think this is a problem of our country or do other countries too have a hand in this?

Madani-:Sachar committee is a report and if you look at JUH resolution over the last 40 years you will feel that Sachar has compiled those. When there was talk to set up this Sachar Committee, a delegation of Muslim leaders led by Maulana Asad Madani met Dr. Manmohan Singh and this issue was discussed. Maulana Asad Madani said that Muslims should get reservation, so the Prime Minister wondered how this could happen, he said reservation on religious lines was impossible. So he said at least look at what conditions the Muslims have reached at. So we told him the conditions but he said we can not just take your observations at face value. So he took a decision to make a committee under the leadership of Justice Sachar. Now that the report is out and it establishes what really the condition of the Muslims, it is important to take some decisions for the Muslims but that has not happened. This is very unfortunate. This also helps the terrorists that you do not do any justice and when there is talk of doing justice you delay it so much that people get impatient and feel alienated.

Secondly, I believe that terrorism is not at all a domestic problem.

Although, it should have been, but it is not and God willing it never will be. Now about SIMI, there is a world of difference between our ideology and SIMI ideology. But our country and its leaders have not dealt with or presented it properly. The style, in which SIMI functions, Bajrang Dal and VHP function in a style worse than that. Till when will this double standard be followed in our country? How will this country work? How will we succeed in our fight? How will we destroy terrorism with these double standards in place?

•Manu Pubby: This question is about the Kashmir situation. You said that you did mass mobilisation against terror but the situation in Kashmir over the last few days must have been a blow to your efforts because so many people are protesting in the streets. So how much did this hurt your efforts and what can you do to bring change?

Madani-:The situation in J&K is very unfortunate, and that too in the name of religion even though this is not a matter of religion at all.

We took a delegation Muslim organisations to J&K and our visit was satisfactory for us. We had a great response in Jammu, we met Hurriyat leaders in Srinagar. Their attitude was not very positive but not very negative either. So, this is definitely a subject of great sensitivity for the country and it needs to be dealt with very carefully. We should try not to communalise the issue.

•Suman K.Jha: Did the Government know that you were doing this?

Madani-:No, not at all, the Government came to know about it later although the Governor welcomed our move and said that what we were doing was the most interesting thing and he requested us to come again. Other than that the Government did not talk to us about this at all.

•J.P Yadav-: Recently a US Citizen was allowed to leave Mumbai and your community raised a few questions that although he was involved he was let off.

Madani-:Why was this question being raised by my community? My Indian community should have raised it. He should be made answerable in court.

•J.P Yadav-: Are you making an issue out of this?

Madani-:No, why should we make an issue, the country should take this up. The real culprit gets away.

•Chithara Paul: Now we have a minority ministry exclusively set up for the welfare of the minorities. So, are you happy with what the Congress led UPA Government is doing for the minorities? What more should be done?

Madani-:No, this is a huge question. What should be done, I am not a specialist on this issue, but JUH has been demanding for a long time that Muslims should be given reservation in education and employment.

There are many suggestions, which can be made if anybody is willing to take up the matter seriously. The Minority ministry is just pretence, nothing else.

•Unnirajen Shanker-: You did not like the idea of Political parties set up along religious lines. I will just give you two examples, one is the Indian Union Muslim League in Kerala, what it does is that it fills the mainstream moderate political space, the absence of which will lead to a lot of extremists filling that space. Now, that party is doing that job in Kerala and post BSP, whether we agree or not, there is huge Dalit empowerment that has happened in this country. Now why can’t a similar thing happen to Muslims in India or Muslims in North India?

Madani-:There is democracy in this country and just like every one else Muslims too have a right to set up and operate their political parties. There is a lot of difference between Kerala and this part of India where we live starting with education, communal tension and situation. If any one tries to make a political party in the name of Islam, political parties will use that to widen the communal gap, which is already there. We cannot afford that. If this gap narrows then anyone can stand up and do this but not today.

•Coomi Kapoor: Would you agree that in the mainline National political parties, those Muslims who are in the top of the hierarchy have no following within their own community whatsoever.

Madani-:I think whatever political Muslim leaders there are today, they are Muslim leaders in their own political parties, they are not the Muslim’s leaders of Congress of Janata Dal. They are the party’s Muslim leaders not the leaders of Muslims. And if any such individual emerges who can understand issues of the Muslims, who can highlight these issues, then the political parties quickly crush him.

•Suman K.Jha: How did you join hands with the RLD? We have heard that there are some internal disputes within the JUH too, between you and your uncle?

Madani-:When I was in my final year at the Deoband Madrassa, the Babri Masjid incident happened and in Deoband too, 6 people were shot dead, something that did not happen in Deoband in 1947 also. It was the Narsimha Rao led Congress Government then and I decided that I will never join Congress. This is how a Muslim youth thought at that time, and I also decided I will not get into politics. Because, when I use to study in Amroah, I studied the Quran and at that time there was a dispute over Deoband between my father and Maulana Taayib. So when I used to walk from my house to the Madrassa, people would stop me on the way and abuse my father, some people would admire, others would abuse.

So, I thought I am not going to get into this. I will do business. So when I finished studying, I started my business in timber which I did for 2 years and I earned a lot of money. Then JUH decided to make me organizing secretary and they asked me and I said I cannot devote any time to that. At the most, I said, I could work for 10 days. Working committee said 10 days is fine so I got stuck to such an extent that its now been 10 years. When I came into the organization and then it was time to enter the political arena and I started with the Samajwadi party. When it was time for elections they said sorry, the Assamese unit is not agreeing. I stayed with Congress. Next election I wanted to contest so they said contest from UP, I said if I have to contest from Up then why will I contest from Congress, what does the Congress have in UP? So, I went to RLD and from RLD I contested this election from Amroah and I won 2,80,000 votes and I lost the election by 9,000 votes. After that they moved me to the Rajya Sabha and that is how I came into the RLD.

Your next question is very important. My father was President of JUH for 22 years and for 8 years I was general secretary. When I came into the organization as the organizing secretary, JUH had 12 lakh primary members. Every two years we go into the field and make primary members and it is a two-year term. Before my father’s death, there were over 1 crore members. After that people said that Maulana Arshad Madani is my uncle and he is the senior person of the family so he should become president and I will remain general secretary and all the work will be done by me. He also said you do all the work I have no problem with that, but when he became president he started doing all the work himself. So is said, ok you do all the work, I tried to be low profile for a few days too. And then things came to a head when he terminated 21 people from the working committee at the same time. Special working committee was called, and a no confidence motion was passed. He said the working committee cannot remove me, I can remove them but they can not do anything to me. So, can any democratic process function this way? Then this issue went to the court, yesterday the Delhi High Court rejected his petition. But we are only fighting within the organization, my personal relationship with him is completely normal.

The present president is a fine man, very sincere. It is my commitment that I will never ever become the general secretary of this organisation and he will never be removed from presidency either. He will remain the president. I just want to work for the organization.

•Anubhuti Bishnoi:: According to you, what is the most important issue for the Muslim community at the moment?

Madani-:Education.

•Anubhuti Bishnoi: Isn’t it true that modern education sits uncomfortably with Madarsa idea of education?

Madani-:There is a religious aspect to Madrassa education. How do we deal with this, in the contemporary modern world? When we talk of education, we must look at what people we are talking about. The kind of people being educated in our Madarassas today, if you close the Madarassas, these people wont get any education at all. First we have to get rid of illiteracy, people should become literate. Do you feel that someone can be made literate without making them an engineer? I have hundreds of examples, where people are engineers or doctors or scientists but they are hundred per cent illiterate. The second thing is that this is my philosophy, you don’t necessarily have to agree with it. There should always be a section in society that can stop society from becoming evil. It can tell society what it wrong or right. This is a need even though a lot of people feel this is rubbish and man should be allowed to decide for himself what is right and what is wrong. I agree but it is important to have someone who can explain things to you.

•Arpit Parashar: Tehelka recently did a story that no case has ever been proved against any person arrested from SIMI. So, do you have any such facts or any such information?

Madani-:I do not have any such facts and as I explained earlier that there is a sea of differences between SIMI and us. Despite that, we have a complaint with the Government, agencies and with the media with the way of dealing. There is no effort to establish truth and justice and double standards are regularly adopted.

•Tannu Sharma-: Yesterday there was a hearing in the Supreme Court where Shahi Badr, a former president of SIMI, his advocate said that earlier whenever there was a terrorist activity in the country, Babbar Khalsa used to be named right away, and now SIMI is named. The judges also agreed with this, and agreed that they will examine the case. This is because the cases usually fall flat in the court and are not proved, there are no FIRs, no chargesheets. What do you think about this?

Madani-:It becomes easier to escape. They don’t have to work very hard and they take anyone’s name.

•Arpit Parasher: Who issues the Fatwas?

Madani-:There is a two-year course for this and then that person should have some practice. Recently we issued a Fatwa against terrorism and three Muftis signed it. Now we are getting it signed by 10,000 people and then we will launch it in Hyderabad and make them take an oath there too.

•Anubhuti Bishnoi-: There was an attempt to make Muslims stand against the Indo-US nuclear deal.

Madani-:This was not a Muslim issue and those who tried to make it a Muslim issue were unsuccessful. It is an issue of the country, some people are for it, some are against. This is a common issue. As a Muslim, you can not be against it or for it. It’s a national issue and you take a decision as a citizen not as a Muslim.