‘I haven’t seen feel-good anywhere. It must be in the pockets of govt’s cronies’

• So you have seen the price you have to pay for politics…

Yes, I have seen that. And at that time I felt about my husband that possibly the same would happen to him. In fact, after my mother-in-law was killed, I knew that he too would be killed.

• You knew means there was an inevitability, there was a premonition?

All of us, my children and me, knew that it was just a question of when. It was a difficult phase, but eventually…I have photographs of my husband and my mother-in-law in my office. And each time I walked past those photographs, I felt that I wasn’t responding to my duty, the duty to this family and to the country. I felt I was being cowardly to just sit and watch things deteriorate in the Congress for which my mother-in-law and the whole family lived and died. So at that point I took the decision.

• It was not just the pressure from the party people coming and saying ‘Mrs Gandhi come and get us the votes’?

Yes, there was a certain amount of….party people coming and saying that I ought to help out the party. But it was more than that. It was this feeling of responsibility towards the family. And the country…because their lives were the country, service to the people.

• Did you see anything happening in the country that said to you ‘I should be in politics’? Did you see any trends in the society or was it just the family and the party?

At that time there was a trend…that was 1998 and the BJP was gaining. And that was the main reason for me taking that decision.

• Why does the BJP worry you? It is a political party…

Because the BJP is a party which believes in a divisive agenda. It has a particular agenda, which at the moment they have sort of softened or kept on the side.

• But haven’t they given it up pretty much in a coalition situation?

No I don’t think so. Here their leaders are giving statements like as soon as we are in power by ourselves, our agenda will be fulfilled. And we all know what their agenda is. This is an agenda against which my whole family has fought, they lived and died for the country… they fought this agenda because this agenda, if it is carried out, will divide our country.

• And you think that they have got close to succeeding?

Well, at the moment it has been partially stalled because since they don’t have the strength they have to have this alliance.

• But tell me something, this is the first time in 30 years that an incumbent government is being given a reasonable chance of coming back to power, 1984 being an exception. What is it that the Congress party and its allies are proposing to people that might be better than what NDA has?

Well, first of all, what we propose to people is what we have always proposed, don’t forget that we have been in power for 47 years. We have had stable governments for 47 years. So, we have experience in governance, we have an all inclusive agenda, not an exclusivist one.

• Can you explain that?

Well, our policies are for everyone, for all sections of society.

• But there are those who say that this government has done more in five years than the Congress did in 47-50 years?

This is a ridiculous statement. How can it be? Is it possible?

• People talk about reforms, growth…

Economic growth has been lower under this government than under Indiraji, Rajivji and under Narasimha Rao. And I am not saying this out of hot air. There are reports, figures. If you move around, out of Delhi…I was travelling here in western UP, Poorvanchal, eastern UP, in Orissa. If there is economic growth, it is not seen in the rural areas. There is tremendous distress and suffering among the farmers, amongst the youth, and unemployment is rising. The shocking thing is that unemployment is rising also in the private sector.

• So what are the three things that your government will do that will be an improvement over the current government?

Well, first of all, I know there are some reservations among people on our stand on reforms… economic reforms. There should be no worry whatsoever. The policy of continuing with economic reform will carry on. Nobody should have any doubts on that. But our economic reforms are slightly different from the BJP’s. In ours, there is a very strong focus on social welfare programmes, rural development programmes, in poverty alleviation programmes and in administrative and financial strengthening of panchayats which has not taken place. In the case of this government what they have done, they have chipped and chopped so many of the poverty alleviation programmes that they have become practically ineffective. By the way, let me tell you we greatly admire our entrepreneurs, our administrators and members of the business class because they have done a great deal for the country. The business community going ahead, we are all for it. But at the same time we have to focus on the poor.

• People from the Congress who have authored economic reforms, particularly Dr Manmohan Singh, they will have a key role in the government?

Certainly, most certainly. Business going ahead and a special focus on poverty alleviation programme, social welfare, these are not mutually exclusive.

• So there is no rejection of Dr Manmohan Singh or his policies?

No, not at all. This is again, yeh to galat fehmi hain. Kisine failaya ki humlog rethink kar rahe hain. Aisi baat nahin hain.

• Aaapke party ke log bar bar kehte hain ki galti ho gayee.

Nahin. Let me tell you, during Narasimha Rao’s time, even during Rajivji’s time when economic reforms were first introduced these were the very people who attacked Congress bitterly on economic reforms.

• You mean the BJP?

All the parties which were on the other side including the BJP. So now it is a bit of a farce.

• You have been in active politics for nearly six years. What were your angriest moments?

More than anger it was anguish. And that was during the riots in Gujarat.

• What was your immediate reaction?

My immediate reaction was, I wanted to go there right away and I asked my office to organise it.

• Yeh sawal ham log bhi kai bar poochte hain, ki aapke party ke MP ko jalaya, to aap ekdam wahan kyon nahin gaye?

Precisely. I was absolutely distraught, and immediately I asked my office, the SPG, to arrange a trip there because I wanted to be there. But the SPG said there was absolutely no question that they would allow me to go. And I did go after a few days. The excuse given to us by government was that if we went there then security arrangement would have been necessary for me and any other VIP. And that would have disturbed the other… but as soon as I could, I went there, I visited some of the hospitals and I can never forget the horrible sights I saw. Later on, I went as part of a Parliamentary delegation. We went to Godhra and we saw the train and what happened there, as well as the areas in Ahmedabad and around where atrocities had been committed on minorities.

• Were you bitter or frustrated that even after this, Narendra Modi won such a big victory and your party had not been able to stop him?

Well, certainly it was disappointing for all of us that we were not able to win those elections. The message, naturally, of that elections was that these kinds of acts had been endorsed by the voters.

• Tab laga aapko ke secular forces ko saath hona chahiye, coalition banana chahiye?

Yes, I felt strongly, and I feel strongly that we have to come together if we want to see to it that such acts are not repeated.

• Your commitment to the coalition idea is not just for this elections? Do you see this as India’s future politics?

This is a trend which has started for some time, and I see it continuing and therefore as long as it is needed we will work with other parties, with like-minded parties.

• But do you think the Congress party took too long to come to this conclusion?

I don’t think so. Till 1996, the Congress always came to power on its own. So the necessity was not there.

• But the party missed it in 1998-1999.

Yes, that was a mistake.

• You are not going to repeat that?

No, never.

• Indian election is also presidential election in a way. One side says Vajpayee is your prime minister. Vajpayee has a formidable reputation, he has a name. Isn’t it tough for you to go to the polls without telling the people who the prime minister will be?

Well, since you talk about Vajpayee having a formidable reputation, this government may have stayed under the leadership of the prime minister, may have run the five-year course. In that sense, yes, it has been there for five years. But there has been great inconsistency in this government’s policies. They have gone from one extreme to the other in many areas. For instance, Pakistan. We had aar paar ki ladai, then we had huge deployment of forces on the border. Meanwhile, the PM says we shall never talk to Pakistan. And suddenly, without any reason, the forces were taken back. So there has been a complete flip-flop in an area like India-Pakistan relations which is a very crucial one.

Same with Ayodhya too. There has been a complete shift from one extreme to the other. One member of the PM’s party says nice, moderate things and two days later someone from the VHP or the RSS will say something nasty which contradicts the moderation of the prime minister.

• But what do you think about Vajpayee, as a fellow parliamentarian, as a rival?

Well, he’s been there for more than half a century in politics, so…

• There are those who say that he has acquired a Nehruvian halo, same kind of credibility, even among those who don’t vote for him.

Sorry, I totally disagree with it. And those who say that don’t know about Nehru, they haven’t obviously not read anything on about who Nehru was or what Nehru did.

• But he’s seen as somebody who is inclusivist, who takes many forces along with him, who is generous and who has personal integrity?

But that’s a way of putting it…generous and takes all the forces with him. But generous in what sense? Because you are blackmailed, ‘unless you give me that ministry, I ’ll leave’. And then you are forced to give that person a ministry. That is being generous? He’s being blackmailed into doing it.

• And he allows him to be blackmailed?

Obviously, obviously.

• National elections have become presidential in a way, and one coalition says he’s your PM. You like him, vote for him, you don’t like him vote against him. Can you go to the polls without telling people who the PM will be?

Frankly, at the moment my priority is to do with all in my power, to work with others, to see that this government is replaced.

• And who comes to power doesn’t matter?

That is not a priority for me at the moment.

• What’s the reason that you think this government must go, even more important than power for yourself?

Because they haven’t fulfilled even a single promise of theirs. One crore jobs— you go anywhere, if you step out of this house, you will come across hundreds of thousands of young men and women who don’t know where to go. They have no future because they are jobless. There has been no growth of investment in the agricultural sector or in the industrial sector. Kisaan aur naujavan des ki jaan hain, hai ki nahin? So if you don’t do anything to give them security…

• So then where is the feel-good factor from?

Frankly, I don’t know. I haven’t seen it anywhere in the places I have been. Feel-good factor could be among some crony of the government.

• Crony in what sense?

Cronies, friends…there is a lot of cronyism going on, even in disinvestment. So, that feel-good factor could certainly be in the pockets of those people.

• That’s a serious charge to make.

Well, I have read it in your newspaper.

• Well, if you keep blaming my newspaper for everything, I have to go back and do some answering.

You are an objective newspaper person, your newspaper is respected for that.

• The campaigns of this government, apart from the fact that they talk about their performance in the past five years, the second leg is about your origin. It is not just your origin, it is even your children’s half-foreign origin.

That should tell you, that’s a message to all of us that they have so totally failed that they have to pick up this one issue.

• But is that a liability for you or your party that you originally came from Italy? Isn’t that a liability? Does it work adversely with some workers?

It may work adversely with some voters. But frankly wherever I go, especially in rural areas, among women, among less fortunate people, I have never felt — even when I first started working in Amethi — that I am a foreigner or that they look at me as a foreigner because I am not. I am an Indian.

• Do you feel fully like an Indian?

Absolutely

• When did the transition start? When was it completed?

Well, the transition was completed long ago. It was a slow transition. After all, marrying into this sort of family, which was part of the freedom movement, which sacrificed, which lived in complete service, seva, of the people. They had no life outside this. So you also imbibe and assimilate a certain amount of these feelings.

• So do you resent it when they talk about your foreign origin?

Not at all. In fact, it makes me laugh. How can I resent it if I feel completely Indian? In fact, when I go abroad, I feel a foreigner there.

• You talked about life outside this family, seva. If you were not in politics, if you had spare time how would you spend it? You watch movies, cook?

Unfortunately, I don’t have much time to watch movies, though I’d like to. But I do relax, for instance, by reading, I used to read much much more.

• What kind of things did you use to read?

Autobiographies, books on history, sociology…and am presently reading Shashi Tharoor’s Nehru: The Invention of India, and of course, I relax the most when I have my family with me, my two grandchildren.

• Is there time for family vacation now?

I don’t see it coming, not for some months.

• But when you had personal space, I presume, when Rajiv went into politics…

Yes, first of all, when Rajivji went into politics, I started looking after his constituency. So I used to regularly go, dealing mostly with issues of women, health and education. After that, when he lost elections, I used to go to the museum to do some voluntary restoration work. But when Rajivji was assassinated, we set up the Rajiv Gandhi Foundation.

• Let me ask you the inevitable question. When do we see your children in politics? I know your party wants it…

I feel silly repeating the same answer. But…

• No, you can repeat it. I will ask you a question following that, which is a mother’s answer. Give me the Congress president’s answer. Is it better for the party that your children get more involved or not?

I don’t think I can answer that.

• The choice is still with them, but give me the Congress president’s answer

I won’t.

• I think your silence answered some of that.

(Pointing) This is where Jawaharlal Nehru’s ashes were kept before immersion, and Indiraji’s, Sanjayji’s…and mine will also be kept there. This is the tradition of the family.

To be continued

See Part I: ‘She (Indira Gandhi) did think Emergency was a mistake. She was never quite at ease with it’