‘Mulayam’s captured our territory, we want it back’

the Congress in power for 15 years and instill confidence in the voter. Self-confidence is easier now because the the Congress has returned to power at the Centre. Whatever the pressures of running a coalition at the Centre, there is a clear sense that the Congress has returned to power. There is a lot more self-confidence than five years ago, when I was last there. A lot of personal contact is necessary in flesh in blood, an acceptable, likeable leader who must be able to reach out to the worker.

What road-blocks do you see as you embark on your new job?

Clearly, lack of will-power or resources on our side. A rusty leadership. In fact, there has not been any upward mobility for new people. Nobody has moved up to the top, therefore nobody from the bottom has moved up. The same people have been getting tickets again and again and losing. That is one road-block. The second road-block is that we are not clearly in the Opposition after having given support to this government. We are a hybrid. As far as government performance is concerned, we are clearly an opposition party. As far as the safety of having this kind of alternative government is concerned, I think we are a supporting party.

Mulayam Singh has expressed apprehension that there is conspiracy to topple his government. Do you rule it out?

We will never conspire. It doen’t help us to bring his government down because we will be opening up a front unnecessarily. Mulayam Singh Yadav is our best ally if he remains in power. He can complain to the Left only if we bring him down. When the elections come, we will face them squarely. We want him defeated, we don’t want him unseated.

What road-map do you have to rejuvenate the Congress? Your district units have not been functional for years, you have district chiefs who have been there for 15 years…

You need to keep churning people, get new faces, get freshness to the district units. There are many things on our agenda. One thing is the collective thinking. Let us have people representing different sections, areas of UP, coming together and collectively take a view. Then, young people. Let us look forward to the next generation too. Three, we have to structure ourselves as a thinking party, not just react to the government. We need to initiate debate. We will take up the issue of minority reservation. We will take up the issue of statutory provision for tenure of IAS and IPS officiers.

You have been PCC president earlier. Tell me what is it that you have told yourself you would not repeat this time?

Maybe tactically, experience of the past will suggest some changes. But I will not change my attitude. This time, surely, I can with some sense of modesty claim that I am among the tallest leaders in UP. At that time, I was a baby. I was ostensibly a junior. There will be tactical differences but I see no strategic retreat from what I had seen as a solution to UP’s problems.

Many people see the Congress seat adjustment with BSP as a turning point, when the Congress committed itself to a secondary position in UP. Do you think it was a wise decision?

I think it must have been a very tough decision. It is easier to say from hindsight now that it was a wrong decision. We gave in too easily too soon and we became a soft party. And we not only became a junior party, we became a soft party and and have remained soft since then. I think we have to become a hard nut. We have to be hard at the negotiating table and we have to be hard out on the streets.

Which social groups do you see coming into the Congress fold?

I don’t see caste as a problem at all. Caste is a non-starter in UP. I may be saying something which sounds ridiculous but there is no caste or an easy caste combination. Muslims are 18 per cent of UP’s vote. With 18 per cent shift, they only need another five or six per cent to make a formidable block and that is what happened when 18 per cent Muslims shifted. They left the Congress in the lurch and they created credible alternative blocks—one led by the BSP, one led by the Samajwadi Party. So, if anybody is to be held responsible for aggressive caste politics, it’s the Muslims. They have to now decide, what did they get in 10 years of association with caste politics? If they understand that they haven’t got their share, I think they will begin to shift.Then the entire ball game in UP will begin to change.

When do you see it happening?

I think it has already started. Don’t judge it by my confidence, judge it by frustration on Mulayam Singh’s face.

There is a lot of Mulayam-bashing rather than Mayawati in speeches of Congress leaders. What does it reflect?

It reflects that he has captured our territory and we want our territory back. And he is not willing to let it go easily. The territory which Mayawati has captured for instance is largely the territory which she has a special claim to. Mayawati has captured 75 per cent of the Dalit vote and 25 per cent of non-Dalit vote. Mulayam has captured 25 per cent of Yadav vote and 75 per cent of non-Yadav vote, including non-Muslim vote. So, who is going to be the priority target? It has to be the one who has taken 75 per cent rather than one who has taken 25 per cent.

Mulayam wants a Third Front.

Third Front against what? The Third Front against the Congress party because the Congress is communal? Because the Congress defeats the Shiv Sena in Maharashtra, defeats BJP candidates in Gujarat where the SP puts up candidates to get 1 per cent vote? Five BJP MLAs are allowed to leave the BJP and join the SP to give them adequate votes to survive in UP. No fresh notification against Advani in the Babri Masjid case. Mulayam’s government files an affidavit in the court saying we don’t know who destroyed Babri Masjid. Let the people see hear and decide.