‘People should not feel that going to the court is a punishment, they should feel part of the system’

played in your childhood days is the most memorable period of a person’s life.

• And those were also in some ways tough days for you…

Yes, tough days because I had to walk five kilometres to reach school, then get up early in the morning, prepare for the school, go for taking bath in the pond…all these were thrilling days.

• And there was very little money…

Of course. My father was a government servant. He had six children, and I’m the second child of my parents. He used to look after all of us, and had to maintain a big family on a court clerk’s salary.

• You father, who worked in a court, would have been really proud — his son becoming the Chief Justice of India.

Yes. My father was very keen on the education of his children.

• In spite of the fact that you were brought up in such a tough situation, your family now boasts so many highly qualified people.

Yes, all got education. In fact, it is in this whole village that so many educated people are here. There are two professors, my neighbours, and there is a district judge…

• And President Narayanan wasn’t too far from here…

He lived some 15 kms from here, in the neighbouring village.

• Is there any recollection from those first visits to the court, where your father worked, of what the court looked like?

Yes, seven-eight years of my childhood I used to see the courts, and was very familiar with them and the court’s staff and all… and I never thought I would become the CJI.

• Do you have any recollection of something somebody said at that point either to you or your father, or something your father may have said to you…

One incident I used to recite. Once the advocates had invited me for some training and asked me how and what attracted me and all that… I have a lot of respect for the court and the judges, I saw the munsifs and all these… in Kerala especially, these judiciary officers are highly respected. And I saw them from my childhood days… so I said, one day I went to the court and there were a lot of people moving around, when one said that there is a court inspection, and I thought that the district judge must have come. Then I was standing there with my father when somebody came and patted my back and said: good boy, study well and all… I came back home in the evening and told this to my elder brother, who is an engineer… and he refused to believe me that the district judge patted my back and said all this to me… and in those days a district judge used to be a very big entity… and even my mother wasn’t fully satisfied when I told her this… but when father came back, he said that was the peon, and I was deflated. The incident was funny, but indicative of my admiration for courts and judges.

• The village of Vellaserry, like most other Kerala villages, is a picture postcard village… our guest today is Kerala’s most famous son Justice K.G. Balakrishnan, to be the Chief Justice of India in two weeks… Actually, he’ll be holding what many of us think today is the most powerful post in the country. He may defer with this, but we’ll discuss that… I am very grateful to you for inviting us here in your village. It’s a very special feeling to be here in this very humble home.

Yes, it raises so many nostalgic memories of childhood days. A place where you have played in your childhood days is the most memorable period of a person’s life.

• And those were also in some ways tough days for you…

Yes, tough days because I had to walk five kilometres to reach school, then get up early in the morning, prepare for the school, go for taking bath in the pond…all these were thrilling days.

• And there was very little money…

Of course. My father was a government servant. He had six children, and I’m the second child of my parents. He used to look after all of us, and had to maintain a big family on a court clerk’s salary.

• You father, who worked in a court, would have been really proud — his son becoming the Chief Justice of India.

Yes. My father was very keen on the education of his children.

• In spite of the fact that you were brought up in such a tough situation, your family now boasts so many highly qualified people.

Yes, all got education. In fact, it is in this whole village that so many educated people are here. There are two professors, my neighbours, and there is a district judge…

• And President Narayanan wasn’t too far from here…

He lived some 15 kms from here, in the neighbouring village.

• Is there any recollection from those first visits to the court, where your father worked, of what the court looked like?

Yes, seven-eight years of my childhood I used to see the courts, and was very familiar with them and the court’s staff and all… and I never thought I would become the CJI.

• Do you have any recollection of something somebody said at that point either to you or your father, or something your father may have said to you…

One incident I used to recite. Once the advocates had invited me for some training and asked me how and what attracted me and all that… I have a lot of respect for the court and the judges, I saw the munsifs and all these… in Kerala especially, these judiciary officers are highly respected. And I saw them from my childhood days… so I said, one day I went to the court and there were a lot of people moving around, when one said that there is a court inspection, and I thought that the district judge must have come. Then I was standing there with my father when somebody came and patted my back and said: good boy, study well and all… I came back home in the evening and told this to my elder brother, who is an engineer… and he refused to believe me that the district judge patted my back and said all this to me… and in those days a district judge used to be a very big entity… and even my mother wasn’t fully satisfied when I told her this… but when father came back, he said that was the peon, and I was deflated. The incident was funny, but indicative of my admiration for courts and judges.

• There is an influence on everybody, particularly people who break out of the system or who have defied the system to go to the top, like you’ve done. Who was that influence on you? Your father, or your mother, or both?

My father was very particular about education. But mother was particular about the great tasks for her: father had to go to work in the morning, and all the children had to go to school, she had to prepare breakfast and lunch and all this.

• When your mother spoke to one of our correspondents, she talked very touchingly about the discrimination that your late father had to face.

That was a time when the whole of Kerala was having a lot of discriminatory practices. Untouchability was there, and caste prejudice in the village was very common. And some of the people who were not actually slaves, they were still attached to some big family to do their work — to whatever rudiments of slavery were left.

• Even the prime minister has said now that “untouchability” is like apartheid.

Yes. And sometimes it is even worse than that. My father must have faced this in his younger days. But my father’s father had faced a lot of discrimination: he was an agricultural worker.

• When did you first meet Mr K.R. Narayanan?

I think I first met him in 1982. He was my father’s classmate, and my father used to talk a lot about him, that his friend is an ambassador in China or Washington and all that… and all these things he used to say were an inspiration.

• Sir, this is something that is repeated all the time: the first dalit Chief Justice of India! How do you react to that? You think it’s been overdone or do you think that people can now see that there is some fairness in the system? You can break out of whatever background or disadvantages…

Even if you have a lot of disabilities, you can come out of them by working hard. That is, even under our system we can come up, and that is a great thing. In fact, when I joined the service, I didn’t deserve any sort of reservation. And that time the benefit of reservation was not even available. But there were many people who helped me when the caste prejudice was at its peak.

• There is a dalit anger in India, and a lot of it is justified because there is prejudice and people face it, particularly when they are young. Why do they take it? They should not take it…

Some people have strongly reacted, and that is also necessary because they should not suffer in a country that professes equal rights for everyone. But prejudices are there, and are a part of gradual transformation of the society. The society would transform only when there is struggle.

• There are aspects to change. One is the rise of people like your own good self and President Narayanan, and many others in many fields. The other aspect is this electoral consolidation, the rise of dalit leaders and the coalescing of the dalit vote around them. What do you think is the right route? You think movement has to take along all routes at the same time?

Social change came quite early in Kerala. And many leaders brought changes in the society with their leadership and preachings. In the Hindi heartland there were social reformers who focused their attention to this sort of prejudices. B.R. Ambedkar was a political activist who worked on political rights, and gradually all rights come with political rights.

• Do you think Ambedkar’s route is the correct route, or can there be improvements on that?

That depends on the political situation. Ambedkar was part of political partition and new government formation, and all those situations. Then, he was the Constitution drafting committee chairman. He was to give shape to the rights of the people to the best of his abilities.

• With all your experiences, what advice would you give to a dalit child, say in a Bihar village, which today might be even more backward than this village where you went to school?

Education is the only way. Unfortunately, such basic facilities are not available in some parts.

• Would you say that if you invest in education and work hard, is the system now fair enough that even dalit boys and girls can come up, like you did? Or you think you are just an exception?

Now it is becoming more and more difficult with the growing competition in all fields. Even if you had good education, sometimes it is not necessary you’ll get a good job now. Job opportunities are less and government job is the only source where people can expect some sort of reservation.

• Is the playing field more level now or less level than when you started?

When I started, we had more opportunities.

• That’s the overall job situation. But, in terms of social discrimination, social equality, is the playing field more fair now? Or is it less fair? Have we evolved for the better or not?

We are certainly better.

• So Sir, what is the answer to growing dalit anger?

Somebody analysed it and may be it has so many reasons. There is lack of employment opportunity, and then there is nothing to fall back upon for them — there is no land or any other opportunity…

• Because the political class’s answer is — more reservation. They are now asking for reservations in the private sector. Is that an answer?

No. This is to be justified by the committee on reservation. Otherwise, all issues and other aspects of reservation will come up…

• So Sir, we resume this conversation here at your old school, Srinarayana Satayagraha School. I think you passed Class V-VII here. From whatever I here of the history of the school, this was also a satyagraha for equal rights for dalits and lower castes.

The school was an institute in the memory of Vaikom satyagraha. Gandhiji had come here in this school and he sat in this very compound.

• Does it worry you sometimes that this politics of empowerment — whether for dalits, or OBCs, or minorities — is slipping into politics of bitterness, or self-imposed exclusion?

That is for every struggle. Some anti-social elements will also try to get benefits out of the social struggle. The leaders should be very much motivated, they must have proper direction, and they must be able to control their followers…

• But Sir, what happens when leaders are digging bunkers and trenches for their followers and digging moats around them? And instead of saying join the mainstream and find your place under the sun, they ask you to go away from the mainstream and get together. One phrase I hear very often covering politics in the Hindi heartland is: season your sticks with oil! And this is what the empowerment leaders are telling their followers.

It is not physical empowerment that actually we want. We want the empowerment of our rights, which is more important.

• Sir, you now take over the Supreme Court at a time when public faith and its expectations on the SC are at the highest ever. There is also special pride and special weight of expectations because you have ascended to this position. As everyone knows it is merit and experience, it’s like a heart in the right place and a very capable head… does it worry you?

Head is more than the heart is more important for a judge.

• Is too much expectation a good thing or a bad thing?

We cannot shut the expectations! World over the Indian judiciary is looked in a very good perspective.

• We talk about citizens now coming to courts with all kinds of problems. Is that because the citizens have a feeling that the courts have all the power? The courts can do what they want! Or is that because some courts are exercising powers too easily, when they should be exercised more carefully? Specifically, many civil servants complain, that they are summoned by the judges, and then they are upbraided in a court of law, in public. And they say judges take delight in doing this…

Some people may comment that some judges are taking delight or any such thing… but we cannot generalise. That may happen in a particular case.

• And I think the judgment you feel proud about is the one on midday meals. Tell us a little bit about that!

I was with Justice Kirpal on the bench. We found in the statistics that the school dropout level was 60 to 70 per cent for children, even in Gujarat and in Maharashtra the drop out rates were more than 40 per cent. So the children who join in Class I, they disappear after reaching fourth or fifth standard. The dropout has other social effects also. So, in order to prevent this high dropout rate we had to give them an attractive incentive. Give them midday meal, and naturally the dropout rate will come down… indeed this is the decision that gave me maximum satisfaction, and not any constitutional issues or any other thing…

• People in India say that the judiciary may be great, but the process is a punishment…

The process sometimes does injustice in the sense that, it may not be intentional, but the court is not able to pay attention to small things. So a man who has come to help the judicial system by being true is in a way punished because he loses wages at the end of the day by having been asked to be present in the court on several occasions, as, maybe, a witness… so if a right thinking person has offered himself as a witness and comes to the court but is not examined… so on… may be small things but it affects the system. People have lost faith in the courts. This way nobody would like to help the system, or be a witness in a criminal case… whereas we say that it is the fundamental duty of the citizens to say truth in the court.

• Sir, if you had a magic wand in one hand and Constitution in the other, what are the three reforms you would bring about in the judicial system?

Cannot conceive of any magic wand… three reforms would be to avoid these delays that you see in pendency; and create a friendly system of judiciary that people should not only respect and love, they should not feel going to the court is a punishment, but they should feel themselves as part of the system. The ultimate aim of judiciary to create a complete harmony, remove disputes and thereby bringing harmony to the society…

• But, my lordship, if I may ask you, does the question of corruption in judiciary worry you? And is there significant corruption?

There are allegations of corruption. We do not know the facts exactly. But even the allegations are a thing of worry. But I cannot say the percentage of corruption… it is really a worrying thing because people come to court for justice and if they feel that justice is being purchased, it is sad. This should not happen.

• Where do you stand on the current debate on how to tackle judicial corruption? There are various solutions that various institutions have…

It is very difficult to detect corruption, especially in judiciary. Sometimes the corruption may be in areas which are not detectable at all. But, if there are such allegations then the traditional way of impeachment and all is very complicated. What we can do is for the judicial appointments to not take a risk with doubted integrity.

• Are you generally satisfied with the system of judicial appointments now, because there had been some problems…

The general account is that it is not transparent and all. Transparency is there in America, but then it is a political appointment. There the person selects his own party men as the chief justice or the judge of the Supreme Court. Then the cases become politically motivated even though the appointment process is transparent. Here this is not like that. The judges play the major role in selecting candidates.

• One reward or punishment, put it whichever way, is being the youngest HC judge, and SC judge, and now the Chief Justice of India. What would you like to be remembered for after you conclude…

After my tenure, people would say, “Here goes a good judge.” That should be the comment!

• But would you not like to leave some hallmark on the judicial system?

That, only after the end of my three and half years’ tenure. As far as delays are concerned, we cannot think of a revolutionary change for a system which is so big and complex and consists of so many personalities.

Sir, all good wishes to you for your new assignment that begins the new year. Wish you a very happy New Year as well! I am so privileged that the Chief Justice-designate found the time for a television interview. I am also grateful to you for inviting me to this wonderful village. I hope we can do this again. Thank you very much.