‘Portfolios that reach out to large numbers are with other parties. So Cong workers don’t feel involved’

• Here’s something we aren’t shy of blatantly, shamelessly plugging.

No, it’s good. I think it’s great if Taj is (chosen) one of the wonders, and puts India on the tourism map, where it really belongs. I wish it happened a long time ago, but it’s still not too late.

• You’ve chosen this venue because you really want it to get the votes?

Yes, I want it to get the votes, not as a minister, but as a citizen: 1.2 billion people in this country, and surely the Taj should get our votes.

• You’re an interesting politician, because you have always been happier in politics than in government.

Yeah, I’m happier being in politics. I’ve taken great pride in saying I’m not a politician, though I think I can count 38 years in politics now. I joined politics because I had some kind of passion for doing things. I’m a student of politics, and I enjoy being in the party. That’s the reason I didn’t become a minister when we formed a government earlier, but now I’m enjoying being a minister.

• So what’s the difference? For this is really your first serious innings in government. 

It’s the first time I’ve become a minister. When the party gives you a lot of strength, interaction with other human beings that’s not motivated by office, it takes you to another high. Government? Well, this is a challenge, especially the portfolio I have. It’s not controversial, and it has lot of potential. I’ve taken it as a challenge. But I miss interacting with my party workers.

• Tell me, what’s been your most interesting discovery in terms of how a government works and how a cabinet works?

Well, it’s thrilling in a way. When you take decisions, they go across the country, they can be implemented.

• Can they?

Well, if you push hard enough . . . that’s what I’ve discovered. You’ve got to push, because if you leave it, no matter how good your ideas are, by the time they reach completion you’ve forgotten about it or it loses the raison d’etre. I have this advantage because of my long innings in the party that I know people holding different positions. So I call, say, ‘Look, I want this passed, it’s come to you for permission.’ They may say, ‘Ah, we don’t know.’ But I can tell them, ‘No, it’s right on your table.’ So I can tell them things like that, I chase things, I push things. Before I became a minister, tourism was looked after by a group of ministers. Can you imagine? Eight or ten taking decisions together. That’s why it was showing that sort of results. But the prime minister took tourism as an entity that was part of the infrastructure committee that he heads. For too long we have thought of it as just sair-sapata.

• Right, actually it’s the biggest job generator.

Yeah, and it’s more than information technology. Because IT is already full of people who are educated, computer savvy. Tourism goes down to the villager, the potter, the bunkar.

• If I may go back to government and party . . . this is an interesting government, because for the first time, in a way, there are two centres of power. There’s a party and there’s a government, and the leader of the party is very powerful and the party has a very strong say in how government is done, unlike in other Congress governments when the prime minister is the party leader. Sometimes it’s comparable to the old Soviet system, where the secretary-general of the party has more power than the prime minister.

I wasn’t in public life then, but when Nehruji was prime minister, he wasn’t the party president.

• Well, it was different then because Nehruji was such a towering personality.

It was towards the later years of Mrs Indira Gandhi that the two posts got combined in one person and have been so since then. But you must also realise that this is a coalition government. So that by itself requires a lot of leadership qualities, and the party president, as I mentioned earlier, really worked hard and had the workers behind her to get back centrestage. Do you recall where we were in 1997? People were leaving the Congress, and that’s the time she (Sonia Gandhi) said, ‘No, I’ll work.’ Shealso gave up (the chance to be prime minister) when people wanted her to be the prime minister.

• When did you realise that there will be this separation of the church and the state, so to speak?

No, she called some of us one at a time before she announced the decision. I was fortunate to be one of those she called up. It upset us a lot, but then . . . you know, you had worked, campaigned, and got results, and you naturally wanted her to be PM. But the way people have responded to her act of giving up, she has acquired a stature that she may not have acquired as PM.

• And there could have been complications for government.

Well, like any government, any leader, she could have faced problems. But today she has this . . . some kind of moral strength, which she has acquired through that one act.

• So, should the opportunity arise again in 2009, do you think some of the hesitation she had last time won’t be there?

You see, this synergy between the UPA chairperson and the PM is something people never thought was possible. It has worked and is working because of both of them.

• But for those once-in-six-months leaked letters.

No, no, she has written those letters before. . .

• But those are not written and released to the public. Those are leaked letters, and that’s what causes the problem.

No, if some letters got leaked, I don’t know. They must have tried to find out how. But I recall how, when Narasimha Rao was the prime minister, prices of gasoline went up and I do recall newspapers had headlines saying the party president tells PM prices mustn’t go up and they didn’t. So this sort of influence of the party should always be there.

• But releasing letters through leaks is avoidable, isn’t it?

Well, if the letters have been leaked because of our handling of the office, certainly it should be avoided.

• And what’s the harm if these letters are actually written in public?

No, if something doesn’t need to go to the public, such leaks should be avoided.

• But would you rather release them in public, for I think they are harmless.

No, the issues she has raised with the government, the Centre, or state chief ministers are issues a party needs to raise and the party should always have primacy over the government. Because it’s the party that forms the government. So you see this constant refrain in Sonia Gandhi’s speeches, in which she says that when ministers travel, they must visit party offices, interact with party workers, so that those who put up the flags, go out and work, who got the voters to vote, should also feel part of the party.

• So there’s no problem in releasing these letters officially rather than leaking them?

First, I don’t know of so many letters that were leaked that shouldn’t have been. There’s one I recall, which created a bit of controversy. That was a personal letter, and I don’t think I can say . . .

• Which one are you talking about?

There was one recently, a few months ago, regarding FDI in retail.

• Right.

The problem was, it was leaked a couple of months after it was written.

• But that has given the impression of an intrigue, one brought about to keep the government in check.

No, I don’t think so at all. . .

• They have the impression of palace intrigue.

No, I don’t think so. Given what I know about the Congress president as well as the prime minister, the two personalities complement each other and they have a very good interaction. I don’t think there’s any intrigue.

• I don’t think anyone has worked as closely with Sonia Gandhi as you have. Tell us a few things we don’t know.

She pays a lot of attention to details, she’s impatient with people who try to shirk work. She sometimes get hurt by intrigue, especially if it’s coming from a person or a group . . . and then she gets hurt and more reserved and she withdraws.

• So she doesn’t use intrigue as a weapon in her politics?

No, I don’t think so. If she wants to convey a message and she tells you or some other colleague, that’s not intrigue, that’s management. But intrigue is something . . . you should know it well, you deal with political affairs. And there’s an inherent quality in her. I have travelled with her when there was this Orissa cyclone, and during the Gujarat earthquake. You people wonder how she got this kind of support . . . but I feel there was this connect between her and the people who were left helpless.

• And you have seen her evolve. 

In eight-nine years, she knows so much about all of us, of politics, of issues. She has travelled. I have seen her going to villages where children are afflicted by polio. I mean, maybe she’ll feel the leg of a child. . .and see what’s the problem, get it treated. I mean that kind of humane thing, deep down. She identifies with those of us in India who still have a long way to go.

• We also see crowds with Rahul Gandhi. Why is it not transforming into votes? In states like UP, many others, why is it not happening?

UP, Bihar, there are these two or three states where we have slid down the ladder. The Congress president has spoken of how much extra work has to be done in UP, Bihar, Tamil Nadu. Now in Tamil Nadu, we’ve made a recovery. We got 40 seats. UP, we need to strengthen our organisation. Rahul has worked extremely hard.

• You didn’t have a PCC president appointed most of the time. It’s really taking the voter for granted.

It’s not taking the voter for granted. In UP, we fought hardly a few seats. This is only the second time we have fought 400 seats on our own. It takes time for a party to build up.

• Why is Congress not showing energy? It doesn’t seem convinced by what it’s doing. I hear so many Congress ministers talking, and they’re almost apologetic.

No, I don’t find anyone apologetic about what’s happened (the development the nation has seen) in the last three years. But there must be a concern that this must also be felt and realised by the people who supported the Congress in 2004.

• Why aren’t your campaigners telling the ordinary citizen that?

One reason definitely comes to mind. This is a coalition government, 14-odd parties, portfolios with different parties, including some portfolios like health or IT, where we have made great leaps.

• Rural development, airport building, it’s all with . . . (non-Congress members of the UPA).

Party people don’t get involved in these endeavours. Ministers who have these portfolios would take care of their partymen, naturally.

• It’s a shyness in celebrating the achievements of allies.

No, the achievements are of the government.

• I’m not convinced enough Congressmen understand or acknowledge that.

Yeah, I think there should be a sense of participation that doesn’t quite happen. Portfolios that can take people along are with other parties, and naturally, our people don’t feel that involved.

• It does seem that you have a government, lead the government, but the cream is with the allies . . . except your ministry.

It’s the Congress that has the government. My ministry is very important. Tourism is 5.89 per cent of GDP.

• What’s your discovery as tourism minister?

Well, the strength, the variety of our landscapes, the products we can develop, whether rural tourism or adventure tourism or medical tourism. We have evolved so many products and people are coming to know . . . there’s a 78 per cent increase in number of tourists, a 15 per cent growth.

• We’re still poor in tourism infrastructure.

We are short of rooms. We need 1,50,000 rooms. We are doing all that we can. There’s hundred per cent FDI — 6.5 billion dollars in the pipeline for hotel construction.

• But nothing’s coming up. Don’t you think it’s too slow?

Well, they are coming up. Our bed & breakfast scheme will give us some rooms. . . but this is too slow. Rules and regulations act as big hurdles. I identified 10-15 institutions, national libraries, museums etc . . . they need to be taken out of ordinary government rules. If it can’t recruit for 300 vacancies, how do they expect a national library to work. These institutions should have grants, and people who know the job should head them.

• Thank you. I wish you great luck with the Taj Mahal.

Yes. I hope every Indian votes and the Taj is one of the seven wonders of the world.