‘Sourav (now) thinks there’s value in Kartik. At the end of the day, it’s the player’s value realised by market forces’

• Did you imagine this becoming so big and ending this way?

I dreamt about it. Let’s put it this way. This was a dream that went back 13 years. But actually seeing it unfold before your own eyes and actually seeing it happen was something beyond my wildest dreams.

• And lots of people have been waiting for you to go very wrong.

I agree, and they will continue to do that. It’s part of life, and that’s something one must take in one’s stride.

• So you now quite look forward to getting immortalised as the father of IPL, a young father.

A young father, but I wouldn’t want to be called that. What I would like to see is IPL actually become one of the greatest sporting properties around the world.

• Or the uncle of IPL. The father has to be (BCCI chief) Mr (Sharad) Pawar.

That’s right, he is the father. He’s the one who actually green-lighted it. He gave me a free hand to go out and do this. He had the wisdom and also the courage, I would say, to actually say that we will do it and this is something that can be done.

• But is it a job done?

Not yet. It’s just a job started. I think we have a long, long way to go. What we have is, well, we’ve built the right building blocks to try and make it a success. Whether it’ll be a success or not, time will tell.

• You’re an entrepreneur?

Yes.

• You were selling cigarettes. Not a nice thing.

Correct. I agree. We have to do something to make a living.

• Cigarettes to cricket. How did it happen?

It all started in 1994, when I partnered with ESPN to launch the ESPN channel in India. The challenge out there was how to make it a business model.

• ESPN was very new at that point.

It hadn’t launched, and when you’re planning to launch ESPN and partner with them, the whole issue was, how do you make a sports channel work in India when there is no pay environment? If people don’t pay for a channel, how is it that a channel can survive? Everywhere else, you have paying subscribers, who pay for a channel, and on that basis a channel survives. Advertising alone can’t make it sustain itself, so the only thing we thought about was . . .

• And you were not yet 30 then?

I wasn’t 30 then, I was 29, just come back fresh from America; studied; worked at Philip Morris and joined the family business; had just done a joint venture with Disney at that time.

• Which didn’t quite go right.

Oh, it went very well. Extremely well, in fact. We had an agreement that they could buy us out after 10 years. We worked with them for 10 years and they bought us out for 250 times of what we invested.

• So it worked well in valuation terms.

And in terms of the product too, actually. We made a lot of money. In that regard, it worked extremely well. It also gave me the foresight to understand all about marketing and licensing, it gave me a lot of insight into the field of sports, and into the licensing of other merchandise.

• So when did you think cricket was something that was so monetisable?

When we talked to ESPN, we looked at all genres of entertainment, and we found that sports is the only genre that people are actually ready to pay for. A movie, they can watch tomorrow, they can watch it day after tomorrow, they can watch it on DVD, they can watch it in the cinema hall. But sports, it is live and you’re addicted to it. That’s something people want to watch right there and then. They don’t want to know the score tomorrow, they don’t want to know it from someone else. So we said, if we went and bought all the cricket rights in the world — at that time cricket rights weren’t being sold by any of the boards; in fact boards were going to platforms like Doordarshan and begging them to put it on air — then people are going to be wanting to pay. But you need to have a system to collect the money and that’s when our joint alliance with ESPN came in. We became their arm to make sure we set up a system.

• So you went and vacuum-cleaned all the cricket rights around the world.

That was the starting point.

• For how much money?

I think the Indian board contract in 1994 was done for $12 million for a five-year deal, which is a lot of money.

• About Rs 47 crore today.

But in those days, the dollar was around Rs 30, so it was about Rs 35-36 crore for a five-year term. That itself, to the Indian board, was a very large sum of money.

• So this has grown more than 250 times.

Absolutely, without doubt. Then we went about mapping the entire country to find out the cable operators, where they lived, how many subscribers they had.

• And you may have known a little bit about distribution from your cigarette business.

That’s exactly what we did. We learnt from the cigarette business. We in fact used the cycle salesmen who actually delivered cigarettes daily. We told them to map out where the antennae are coming from, who the cable operator is, get his address, get his phone number, find out how many subscribers he has. That took us about a year and a half, but we were able to map pretty much the whole country. That gave us a base to go forward and look at launching a pay channel when everyone said it’d never happen.

• Things went up and down.

Actually, the first test was when India was visiting England. That’s when we encrypted the signal. We launched in October, but in June, the following year, we switched the signal off and said you now have to pay for the signal. Our offices were stoned, a lot of our staff was beaten up. Slowly but surely, after that, operators realised we were serious. They started to pay; the cartelisation broke up. The pay channel business began that day.

• One thing everyone is asking is, now IPL is fantastic, you got a lot of money for the board, the players have got a lot of money, the sponsors have paid, the buyers have paid, but mujhe kya milega, as a cricket fan?

This is a key question we are addressing at the moment. You’ve got to understand, everybody talks about the BCCI having so much money, BCCI making so much of money. Our money’s only started rolling in about a year and a half ago. We have already earmarked funds and are ready to dispense a thousand crore this year for upgradation of stadiums. We need close to three and a half to four thousand crore just to upgrade stadia to international standards. Now, with the IPL coming in . . .

• And you’re going to give that money away?

All of it is going to the stadia. All. You’ll see, by March 31.

• Because I know how money has been raised for this stadium (Ferozeshah Kotla, where the interview took place) and even these stands, finding sponsorships, fighting . . .

They (cricket associations) don’t need to do that any more, because BCCI will be giving them in excess of Rs 25 crore to Rs 30 crore every year.

• We also have too little cricket in India (to raise all the money required from gate collections).

That’s right, you have one match in two years, and there are so many associations you have to look after. Now, with IPL, you’re going to get seven more games every year. It’s never happened before. You can upgrade the facilities because you are using them more. Secondly, the money we are going to be giving from the BCCI will allow the stadium owners to actually upgrade the facilities to international standards.

• There’s a lot of scepticism, there’s a feeling that BCCI doesn’t make its accounts transparent. It doesn’t have a website. It functions like a old boys’ club which doesn’t know where its money disappears. If you ask a fan, he’ll say all these billions come, they take it home.

I agree with you. That’s been the perception, but that’s changing. If you look at it, you’ll see the work that has already gone in. In Punjab, they have done a remarkable job of upgrading facilities. Look at Jaipur, they had no stadium. Now they have world-class facilities out there. And Punjab is building a brand new stadium, in Mohali, and another in Jalandhar. I was just told this evening they’ve got land in Ludhiana, so they’re building a third one. In Bathinda, too. You see, all stadiums don’t have to be this size (indicating Ferozeshah Kotla).

• Purists have a concern that IPL will make cricket out to be a tamasha. Film stars are buying players and teams. People say, what nonsense is this, you’re paying more for Cameron White than Ricky Ponting. And did someone confuse David Hussey with Michael Hussey? Just what’s going on?

No. In fact, in my view, David Hussey and Cameron White are two of the top upcoming stars of Twenty20, which is a different game altogether.

• So you don’t think Ricky Ponting has gone too cheap?

I don’t think so . . . I think he’s gone a little cheap, I think they’ve got a good buy in Ricky Ponting, but I think they’ve got a great buy in Cameron White and David Hussey, without doubt.

• When you were in Australia you said that after these controversies the appeal of Australian players may come down. Has that worked?

I don’t think that’s true. If you look at Andrew Symonds, he’s gone for $ 1.2 million. And Gilchrist, he’s retiring, has gone for $ 700,000. So owners have done a study and actually paid on the basis of who they think are Twenty20 stars.

• There are other interesting things. For example, Sourav Ganguly, who is widely credited with having kept Murali Kartik out of the team for almost a decade, has now paid more than Rs 1.6 crore to have him in his team.

So he thinks there is value in Murali Kartik. See, at the end of the day, it’s the player’s value realised by market forces. So it’s not by a selection process, it’s by market forces.

• So, at the end of the day, it’s the same Jerry Maguire business: you show me the money, I’ll show you the star.

At the end of the day, it’s the talent. If you look at a kid like Ishant Sharma– who was nobody six weeks ago, nobody even knew his name– all of a sudden, the moment was right for him, his timing was right, his stars were lucky. He went to Australia, he performed outstandingly in Australia, and all of a sudden, he’s in everybody’s mind. And he’s from an ordinary family, lives in a one-room house. From where to where. . . and this is the interesting part . . . and I feel proud of it . . . that if IPL can do this to Ishant Sharma, to a Manoj Tiwary, it gives a lot of people the hope to go and make cricket a career.

• But does it percolate down? For example, to your own team in Rajasthan?

Yes, I’ll give you an example. Each team is required to have four players under 22 years. I won’t name the boy, but we had put a base price at $ 20,000 for under-22 players, as we think that’s what they should be getting. It started at $20,000 two nights before the auction, went to 50,000 in the middle of the night by another team’s offer, and then went up to $70,000 by the next morning. By afternoon, the bidding for him had reached $1,50,000. He signed with someone at $200,000 and then somebody tried to break the contract for $3,50,000.

• That was one of your players?

It was one of our young players. And this is happening all across the country. We’ll have a minimum of four under-22 players (per team) so that’s 32 players.

• But will it percolate to Ranji?

They’re all Ranji players.

• Will it percolate to domestic tournaments, to colleges, to schools?

Everywhere, I think it’s going to go all the way down the line, it’s going to go all the way. All cricketers across the country who have any merit, who can play, and if they are good at it, they will get recognised. Not by our selectors, but by the franchisees. Now there are two selection processes: one, the BCCI; the other, the private entrepreneur who is seeing the talent out there, he’s going to have coaching camps, he’s going to be opening academies.

• Because they’re listed assets now.

They are assets and the entrepreneurs are going to go out there and actually see the talent.

• So it means that Sourav Ganguly the captain sees no merit in Murali Kartik, but Sourav Ganguly the entrepreneur sees value in Murali Kartik.

It all depends, you know. When you are at a different level you’re choosing with a different mindset, but when you are now fighting for yourself, you want the best for yourself, and the owners we have are all the types who have big egos. They don’t want to lose, they all want to win, and that’s best for the game.

• You’ve got stars and stars; you’ve got (film) stars buying stars.

And what’s wrong with that?

• I mean it’s fantastic, two for the price of one. People come to watch Shah Rukh Khan’s team, they also get to watch Shah Rukh. I think that one jig by Preity Zinta in Mohali did so much for you.

I agree, and it’s great for the game, because if that gets people back into the game, it gets youngsters involved in the game, it gets families and women and children into the game.

• But are you also spoiling cricketers? I’m pro-money, I want them to get more money, but you know, some of the things you’ve done, for example, after Twenty20. Harsha Bhogle has written about the board giving Yuvraj Singh more than the others. It’s unprecedented, it’s feudal.

I don’t agree with you in that sense, because I think if a person does something outstanding for the country . . .

• It’s like all the crores given to Javed Miandad for that last-ball six.

I agree with it hundred per cent, because if he’s performed well, and he’s got glory for your country, and everybody made him a poster boy, there’s no reason we shouldn’t reward him. One crore was too small, I think we should’ve given him more.

• No, no, but you should have divided it among the team members.

I’ll tell you what the policy of the team is: any prize money that any player gets, they automatically divide it among themselves.

• But was that divided?

I wouldn’t know, but I’m saying that’s been the policy of the board. Most players do that.

• But the Porsche wasn’t divided.

The Porsche was a personal gift from me to Yuvraj Singh.

• Tell us the story of the Porsche.

I was sitting with the boys prior to the game, and we were just talking about people hitting sixes, longest sixes, and I said nobody has every hit six sixes. So Yuvraj said, if I hit six sixes, what’s the big deal? I said, you’ll get what you want. I said, what do you want? He said, my dream car is a Porsche. I said it’s yours if you hit six sixes, and he actually went and hit them. And he didn’t think I’d give him the car, so I made sure he got the car.

• Did he come and ask you?

He did. Immediately after the game, he came and asked me. He said, I know you’re not going to give it to me, I’ve hit my six sixes. I said, no, it’s not true, you’ve hit your six sixes, you’ll get your car.

• But that was a personal gift?

That was a personal gift. That he doesn’t have to share.

• An unusual choice you made in Rajasthan was getting Greg Chappell — the man a lot of Indians were made to hate at one time because we made him the scapegoat for our performance in West Indies — as Rajasthan’s coach. Was it a cricketing decision or a political decision?

It was purely a cricketing decision. I’ve known Greg for a long time; I think what Greg can do, and is doing, is something he could not have done with the Indian team. He’s great with kids.

• Why could he not have done it with the Indian team?

Because the Indian team is already developed. Big stars. Everybody’s already at this level. If you need to mould a cricketer or a sportsman, you got to do it at a young age. You got to start at the age of eight or 10. You can’t be starting at 15 or 16.

• Let me rephrase this: Our stars are also not used to listening to a coach.

I agree with you there, 100 per cent. If you see, we have been without a coach for the last so many months, we have a manager. That’s what the job of a coach has been so far, because all these boys have already reached that level. What I think Greg is great at is actually moulding minds, young minds, and actually making them tars for the future. And that was a critical factor.

• So you were not answering to the Bengal lobby by bringing him in.

I was not answering any lobby. In fact, a lot of my colleagues were very upset with me that I had actually gone out there and hired Greg Chapell. But I didn’t do it for personal vendetta.

• But how is he doing?

He’s doing incredibly well, in my view.

• What are the unusual things he’s doing in Rajasthan?

First and foremost, he’s moulding the boys mentally and physically. They have cricketing skills, but their mental and physical abilities are still below par as far as world standards are concerned. So what they go through is, like in the army, we have a full-fledged obstacle course in Rajasthan. The boys go through that every day, twice a day. They go through gymnastics, they do swimming, they do boxing, they do taekwondo, they play basketball, they learn different skills. Then there is also the mental side of it. What he’s trying to prepare them for is to be all-rounders physically. Then, you may be a great batsman, but you may be a great bowler too but you may not know that: so he’s trying to pull the actual talent out and see what they’re actually good for, and then start giving them finer lessons.

• Well Lalit, I think what you’ve done is quite remarkable. You’ve got Sourav buy Kartik, you’ve got Greg Chappell to come and coach your team at the same time. You’ve got Shah Rukh Khan buy a cricket team after having done so much for hockey. So I don’t know what you’ll do next: maybe take cricket to America? Don’t take it to China. They’ll start beating us.

China and America are the two biggest markets. I’m glad you brought that up. But ideally, we think that Twenty20 is the only format of the game that will be appealing to the Chinese and the Americans, and I think that’s the next place we need to go.

• Well, I hope you keep in mind purists like us, who still like our Test cricket and a day of batting by Rahul Dravid and V.V.S. Laxman.

Without doubt, I think that has its own place and it’ll be here to stay for a long time. Our bread and butter is still the Test matches and the ODIs, it’s not the Twenty20. I mean, the BCCI will continue to nourish that and that’s why we are not playing Twenty20 too much on an international level. We are restricting it to one or two games per season.

• Well, Lalit thank you very much, wonderful chatting with you. And I’ll say it once again, don’t bring the Chinese into it: you might regret it.

I think they’ll beat us, they’ll be very good at it. But they are seriously looking at it. The Sports Ministry in China is seriously looking at taking on cricket and they think cricket is the way forward.

• Keep chasing your dream.

Thank you.