‘The present ruling alliance needs the Left… and once you need them, they will dictate terms’

VARGHESE GEORGE: By the models in most western countries, for a democracy to be stable it’s necessary to have two poles. When you have more and more fragments, won’t it bring in more instability?

I think it’s very difficult to decide on the notion of stability-instability. Do we want stability in that one or two parties get power, one or two persons get power, and stay on and on? I don’t think that’s stability. It’s archaic that we continuously think one person, one party, one family is stable.

D.K. SINGH: You just talked about the Emergency. An incident mentioned in Pupul Jayakar’s biography of Indira Gandhi is that Sanjay Gandhi asked you to show him before broadcast a news bulletin on something that went wrong. The biography says he said something very rude and you said, ‘Young man, you’re my son’s age and should be more polite.’ Within a few hours your portfolio was changed. Is that true?

That’s correct.

D.K. SINGH: There’s a reported statement by UPA’s presidential nominee Pratibha Patil from the Emergency days. She reportedly said that people with hereditary diseases should be forced to undergo sterilisation. Do you think it was her personal opinion? Or was it that the political environment was such that she was forced to say such things?

I’m sorry the Emergency is coming up for discussion. During that time the approach of the rulers was, only my will has prevailed, and my will is that people should have no more than two children. And the press will not report.

SAUBHIK CHAKRABARTI: As a former PM, and someone who has been in public life for so long, you must have an opinion on UPA’s presidential candidate. Will you share it with us?

It was me who tried to get 30 per cent quota for women. I didn’t succeed. I feel women should have more place in our political system. But no comments on her candidature.

D.K. SINGH: You have worked for long with Indira Gandhi. Now, you have seen Sonia Gandhi, her politics. What similarities do you see in their style of functioning?

To comment on Indira Gandhi . . . keep in mind that it would be a mistake to think of her in black-and-white terms. Her contributions to India are remarkable. She was a remarkably good leader. The Bangladesh war is evidence of that. In south Asia, too, she was a leader of such merit. Seen in totality, I admire Indira Gandhi. I have no comments on Sonia Gandhi, but I think, according to the circumstances, she is serving the interests of her party well.

TENZING LAMSANG: How do you look at the “supreme sacrifice” — when she said she won’t be prime minister?

People should decide on that. I have no comments.

VANDITA MISHRA: As someone who has been a PM in a ‘Third Front’ government, how do you look at this new ‘Third Front’ that came together recently in Hyderabad? What do you say to arguments that our whole polity is moving towards inevitable bipolarisation? Do you think there’s space for a ‘Third Front’ at the Centre?

We don’t decide on these things by seminar, or academically. We are a large, diverse country, with so many states. Evolution takes place, and that’s why, after every election, a new scenario emerges. It’s good because it comes about through democracy. The way we are going through this process is the best way for evolving a democratic society. About the ‘Third Front’ in Hyderabad, I don’t think it has emerged as yet.

VARGHESE GEORGE: You have defined your politics as fundamentally opposed to the BJP’s politics. But you took a sudden U-turn and joined the Akali-BJP brand in Punjab. Your son is a Rajya Sabha member representing the Akali Dal.

To think of the Akali Dal in the same colouration as the BJP is incorrect. Akali history is that they were valiant freedom fighters. They were always anti-British. This was the only part of the country that every day resisted Emergency. Are they against Hindus? No. If the Akalis and BJP are together, it’s good: they are keeping communalism out. We brand anybody, and some people think they have a right to brand anybody and then decide who is secular and who is communal. It would be very unfair to call Akalis communal. Have they ever done anything against any community — any non-Sikh community in Punjab? During British raj, there was Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan, the Frontier Gandhi, who organised an agitation. The British sent the Gorkha regiment here. The Akalis used to send 100 people every day as a mark of solidarity. Nobody else did it. I come from a small town in Pakistan, on a river bank. My father was president of the Congress. The police let the jatha come to the bridge, blocked it from both sides, and started thrashing the protestors. They threw some of them into the river. My father learnt my younger brother was unwell and dying. But my father went to help the jathawalas. My brother died. There was such solidarity, which also came to the fore when Bhindranwale emerged. To brand Akalis communal is unfair. Some parties have differences with the Akalis. Welcome. But that doesn’t mean anybody who differs with my party or the left party or the right party is communal.

PAMELA PHILIPOSE: I was wondering whether you approve of the way the Akalis have handled the Dera Sacha Sauda issue?

One difficulty in Sikh politics, and I am not talking about Akali politics, is the proliferation of these deras. I think the Dera man was both foolish and unwise when he tried to play a Guru and therefore he hurt the feelings of many. How it is to be dealt with? I don’t know. I don’t think he deserves my sympathy or support.

RAVISH TIWARI: You have been the foreign minister. How do you see two things — our nuclear deal and our relations with Pakistan?

You see, I don’t know how ultimately the nuclear deal will take shape. But let me assume for a minute that India will be able to get the terms we negotiated between the two heads — the PM and Bush. Energy is a serious problem for us and also some sort of restrictions were imposed on us when we tested. If we can find a way to get out of it, welcome. Why not? Indo-Pak relations will always be an uncertainty. I don’t think we are near it. Till Pakistan becomes democratic, the way out will not be found.

SHEKHAR GUPTA: Do you see the nuclear deal as a deal about energy or as a deal about strategic relationship?

I don’t use the word deal. After the test, it has become an item of high priority in our thinking. How to get rid of sanctions? We want to get rid of them because we want to go towards energy. Therefore, by negotiating, a way out can be found. I would support it.

D.K. SINGH: Do you approve of the way the government finally yielded to Left pressure and drew boundaries in the Parliament even before the deal was struck?

The main point is that these are talks between two nations, between two governments. I trust my government. My government tells me, ‘We have said this.’ I have no doubt about its integrity.

D.K.SINGH: Do you see the Left playing minority politics in this matter?

I think you must look at the Left’s attitude to America. Can you think of any time in last 60-70 years when the Left appreciated any American policy? They begin with that (the assumption) that everything the US does is bad.

SHEKHAR GUPTA: You dealt with the Left and you had a government supported by the Left. Of course, you dealt with Mr Harkishan Singh Surjit most of the time. How does one negotiate with the Left? You negotiate with Russians in a certain way, you negotiate with the Americans in a certain way. How do you negotiate with the Left when they are your partners?

First, you decide what you want to negotiate with them. Second, Indian political parties must first make up their minds whether they can survive without the Left. Only then you can come to something. The present ruling coalition needs them. Therefore, for the wrong or right reasons, I’m not commenting on them. Once you need them, they will dictate (terms).

VARGHESE GEORGE: Which was the most difficult situation during your prime ministership? There was lot of pressure when Lalu Prasad Yadav brought pressure on you to bail him out in the fodder scam case.

One thing I must say is that Lalu never asked me to bail him out.

VARGHESE GEORGE: He did not?

No. I never asked then CBI director Joginder Singh to bail him out.

D.K. SINGH: Prime Minister Dr Manmohan Singh, like you, is something of a scholar prime minister. What’s your opinion of his performance?

Good. I think Dr Manmohan Singh has many merits. Integrity? Yes. Intelligence? Yes. Highly sophisticated intellect? Yes. These are not easy qualities to find in a politician.

PAMELA PHILIPOSE: After the Devegowda government fell, there were two candidates for prime ministership. One was Mr Moopanar, the other was you, and you became PM. Had Mr Moopanar been PM, would things have been different for this country? In other words, do you think you have given a certain kind of trajectory to the country’s politics that you can claim as your very own.

You are patting me on my back. I don’t believe in saying I was the best. Many people were better than me. But politics never chooses the best. It’s a situation in which everyone has to sort things out on his own. Moopanar was a very competent person but he had a problem with the DMK. At that stage, everyone had his own contradictions. Fortunately, I didn’t have any.

SHEKHAR GUPTA: What was the greatest surprise that greeted you when you took over as PM? The things you didn’t know before but learnt only as the PM?

Quite a few, the nuclear issue being one of them. The main point you should keep in mind is that I’m opposed to bringing the office of the PM under the Lokpal Bill. Because there are many things only a PM is privy to. When Atal Bihari Vajpayee was PM and said the office of PM should also be under the Lokpal Bill, I opposed it. I still oppose it. Not because I was a PM or not. But because I believe it shouldn’t be under the Lokpal Bill.