‘The riots took place when I was in power, so I know I can’t detach myself from them’

• Two types of summers?

The heat of the weather and the heat of the elections.

• Gujarat is hot and dry but there is some amount of optimism this year due to Narmada. We are at the canal through which you took the water to Sabarmati and this year you have the permission to raise the height by 10 metres.

Gujarat, I think, is the first state where the river grid concept has successfully been implemented, because of which there have been great benefits.

• And I also see, and even the Supreme Court has agreed, that in the area of rehabilitation, Gujarat’s record is better than that of its neighbouring states.

As far as rehabilitation is concerned, the entire world has noticed Gujarat particularly in two areas. We rehabilitated after the earthquake the way we have done at Narmada. You must be knowing that Gujarat has won a UN award. World records say that after an earthquake, it takes seven years for people to come out. Then they take another 10 years to start walking again. But Gujarat is a state where, after the biggest earthquake in 100 years, it started running in three years. And we won the award.

• You always talk of Gujarati pride, asmita. Your theme is about being proud of Gujarat, taking pride in being a Gujarati. The Narmada canal is a part of that. The dam is a part of that. What other changes have you seen in the past two years which you believe are the symbols of Gujarat’s pride?

Gujarat is one of the better states in the country. But when I came here, I was surprised to note that it ranks 19th in the education of the girl child. I was upset to read that it ranks as low as that! I made it my goal and today I can proudly say that within two years, we have brought about plenty of changes.

Every year, a day before the schools reopen in June, I visit villages where less than 20 per cent of girl children are educated. I go there with my team of ministers and bureaucrats. So a team of about 200 top state officials goes door-to-door. That makes even the parents feel that there has to be a solution. And last year, I was successful in enrolling 100 per cent of the girls of school-going age.

Now my aim is to reduce the dropout ratio. For that, I have worked out a scheme, Vidya Lakshmi Bond. As soon as a girl is admitted to school, I give a Narmada bond worth Rs 1,000. If she reaches VII standard, she gets the money along with the interest so that she can continue studying. Secondly, we insure all the girls going to school under Vidyarthi Pariyojna. Thirdly, the girl’s family gets 10 kg of foodgrain. Then, and it’s my personal decision, when politicians go to various functions, we get gifts. I don’t know what they (the rest of them) do with them but I collect them in the state treasury and then auction them. I have given Rs 75 lakh towards girl child aid collected this way.

• Girl child is one thing. But time and again, you talk of the Gujarati pride and it has a great influence. If you have noticed, there’s a new pride, a new hero. Irfan Pathan. He’s 19 years old. Two years ago, he was 17 and in Baroda, two people were killed in his neighbourhood during the riots. About 5 km from his house is Best Bakery, where 14 people were killed. He could have been killed in those riots. We would not have see him.

It’s not right to think that way; that he could have been killed. Anyone being killed is bad, even if he’s the poorest or the most ordinary man.

• Or of any religion?

Killing a human being is bad. How can a person not feel bad when another human being is killed? That isn’t possible.

• But I want to talk about governance, which you also talk about a lot. Can you guarantee Irfan or his family that there will be no riots? That they will be safe?

You are mixing two issues. It’s like mixing our masala dosa with Italian pizza, which is quite unsavoury. So it will be better if you discuss the two separately. I can discuss them at length if you want.

• I know these days you think a lot about Italian pizza, but in governance, all the issues are interconnected. It’s more like a buffet…

After the Akshardham incident, there were chances of riots in Gujarat. But still the state exercised restraint. I think that in our country, we need to educate people on such incidents in the right perspective.

• If 183 people are killed in police firing, in which 103 are Muslims and 80 Hindus—and these are figures of your special branch—what does that show?

Your information is absolutely wrong.

• But these are the figures of your special branch.

They are wrong. Secondly, I still believe that one who is guilty is guilty. But I am not in favour of seeing this in terms of religion. Those who saw it in such a light have run the country down for 50 years. They sowed the seeds of hatred which are now bearing fruit. And I have to go through this. It is my fate. But remember, in a country as big as ours, there is no alternative to social harmony. We keep raising such issues even after two and a half years, when the state is peaceful and progressing in every field. But you don’t leave all that behind because you have an agenda. You feel that such a big incident happened in somebody’s governance but we, the media, could not get him punished. And till we do that, we can’t be at peace. I wish you the best. If I seem guilty, you can hang me.

• Do you agree with the view that the Godhra incident and the riots afterwards were regrettable?

I believe that such incidents, in any civilised society, are not welcome, and we all have to think of ways to avoid them.

• Have you given any thought, as an administrator, to alternative ways of managing the situation? So that it never happened?

I am waiting for the inquiry commission so that we can get a third party’s objective view and then work on the shortcomings. I believe that anyone who believes that he is perfect is wrong.

• Advaniji has said that the key to healthy Hindu-Muslim relations is good relations between India and Pakistan. Do you agree?

If there is an atmosphere of friendship with Pakistan, there’s a reflection of that here.

• In this atmosphere of peace, are you then making a political shift from your Mian Musharraf to Bhaiya Musharraf?

You, as a journalist with a knowledge of words, would know that Mian is a term of respect.

• No, you didn’t use it as a term of respect.

Do you know that in Muslims, a wife addresses her husband as Mian? It’s a term of respect.

• But you didn’t use it as a term of respect.

That could be your point of view.

• According to an Indian Express-NDTV opinion poll, you are clearly winning the election in Gujarat. You are winning 24 out of 26 seats. You are Gujarat Hriday Samrat. Then why do you use language like ‘‘they won’t get a clerk’s or a driver’s job’’, while your own party leaders are asking for the level of political debate to be high. Is this part of the Modi brand?

Elections are an occasion to educate people and we should work hard and reach out to the maximum number of people and convey our views. Also, while speaking at a public meeting, one or two no balls do slip in.

• A wide ball or a no ball?

We should try for a no ball but could be a no ball, a wide ball or even a bouncer, and we should be careful.

• Did the third umpire tell you to tone down the no balls and the wides?

You are saying it…

• We are spectators. Do you regret the no ball? Most bowlers try to correct themselves after a no ball.

We will do so.

• So you will change your line and length from talking about the jersey calf, driver, conductor and clerk?

That’s not an agenda for me. I have been giving speeches for two and a half years now—four-five speeches a day. You’ve picked out one. After all, it must be tough for you people to find something to ask me.

• Even if Shoaib Akhtar bowls four no balls, everyone remembers them. Even if he’s taken a wicket, Inzamam-Ul Haq, Javed Miandad and everyone else say that he has airs…

I believe in sarcasm, after all an election cannot be bland. But I am in favour of politeness.

• But this is not humour. This is hitting below the belt.

I don’t defend it, but a no ball happens while bowling. So what’s there to defend? You have asked a question about brand Modi. I think that I am being given too much of importance. When I look back at the last century, I cannot see anyone as a brand other than (Mahatma) Gandhi.

• You are an admirer of Gandhi.

Perhaps Gandhi is the only person who could fit the mould of a brand.

• Do you sometimes feel that you made a mistake?

Good question. I pray to God to give me the strength to go on with my work well, rid myself of my shortcomings and take the help of my friends if I can’t do so myself.

• Do you feel any remorse about, and think of other ways of having dealt with, Godhra?

Firstly, I think I did the most I could with the resources at my disposal and with the amount of experience I had. As far as the results are concerned, I managed to protect 98 per cent of Gujarat where not a single untoward incident occurred.

• Advaniji and Vajpayeeji called the Godhra incident a blot and also what happened after it. Do you agree?

In my own statement, I have said that such incidents, in any civilised society, are not welcome. Everybody has their own way of speaking…

• At some places, you stick to the line and length while in others a no ball slips in.

I have the courage to call it a no ball.

• Surely it is not just that after an incident that claimed a thousand or fifteen hundred lives, not a single senior official was transferred or suspended. You say that you’re waiting for the inquiry report. However, as an administrator, do you feel remorse at not having dealt with the situation differently? We could have averted it.

Look at it differently. In our country, there’s a trend that when an incident takes place, two officials are hanged while the politician goes scot-free. You should give me credit for not passing the blame to anyone other than myself. In politics, it’s rare to find someone who is ready to own responsibility. Otherwise, it’s easy to pass the buck. Where will you find someone like that in politics?

• God forbid, if this kind of a situation arises again, the officials would have no fear.

Rather than me handing out a punishment, it is better if the legal system takes action. To misuse one’s being in power by hanging someone else—I think that would be trying to save one’s skin. That’s why I said in the Assembly that if anybody has to be punished for what happened in Gujarat, it should be me.

• Where do we see you 10 years from now? Because you have learnt from the riots and the last election campaigns, you will bowl the right line and length, you have also seen the adverse impact of no balls and wide balls. And for three years, you have run the government. So where do we see Narendra Modi 10 years from now?

I have not made a roadmap for myself. I have reached here but it wasn’t according to any roadmap, but you will always see me as a devoted BJP worker.

• Another question I want to ask is that the PM speaks of raj dharma. How do you define it? In the same context in which he spoke about it?

I have not discussed this in detail. I will surely sit with the PM and I don’t see a reason why my concept should differ from his.

• Raj dharma also means that the ruler loses his sleep over the concerns of his subjects and feels remorse. Today, two years after riots, do you ever wake up from your sleep thinking about the victims? Or feel anxious that it happened during your governance…. The commission won’t ask you this question.

If I say yes, people will say I talk big. If I say no, then people will say: ‘What kind of a person is this?’.

• But you must give a true answer.

That is why I say that this issue is a matter of my personal feelings and the right time hasn’t come for me to put it in words.

• Do you feel the pain?

Today, a mishap upsets me—be it in my state or Kashmir. Two days ago, I was in the yatra and a journalist friend was hospitalised. But I was in touch with him.

• So you do feel the pain of 2001? I also feel hurt about 1984.

I am a human being born in India and it’s not possible that you imbibe the culture of this land but I don’t. Everyone has it.

• So the things I feel sad about bother you as well? And you say it’s not the right time to talk about it.

I don’t need to present myself in words. My behaviour, my conduct can help reach a conclusion, but I don’t think I should praise or criticise myself.

• I am not talking about praise or criticism but introspection …Sometimes I also say that I have not done my work properly.

I believe that introspection should be done in the right way. Not in an extrovert manner.

• That is not possible in public life. It has to be open. The way Gandhiji used to do it.

I think it is beyond me to match up to Gandhiji. I believe in his path and of him as a great person, but how can I say that I can reach there?

• But there is introspection as you feel the pain?

Everyone feels it…it hurts. Even if a flower wilts…

• Do you learn from your past experiences and evolve?

Let me tell you that I request people not to give me bouquets but books instead. I am also a human from within, but just because one incident happened during my governance, I know that I will have to bear the burden forever.

• It’s a loaded expression, no pun intended, and I am not saying that it is negative. It’s a positive expression.

It’s for the ‘pundits’ to analyse all that, but it took place when I was in power so I can’t detach myself from it.

• I would say that you’re a good politician, as all your examples were befitting and reflect introspection even if you don’t have a roadmap. I hope that 10 years later, we will see Narendra Modi in a significant position. And hopefully you will keep evolving for the better and we will have many more conversations like this.