‘(We get) not more than 450,000 tourists (per year)… China gets 25 million… It is a shame’

• And what you have built is very much in harmony with what this place has traditionally been.

I told the architects that in 10 or 15 years, people should ask when was this built, 100 years ago or 50 years ago?

• They should confuse this with the old buildings?

Yes, that was the idea.

• That’s the difference with which you have conducted the business, or the way you have built the Oberoi group. We Indians are not known for quality, and even when we get quality, we are not known for consistency in quality. There was this infamous comment by the Duke of Edinburgh where he saw a fuse blown and said ‘‘it must have been fixed by an Indian’’. Now, your group, and the way you and your late father built this tradition of quality, has stood out. In fact, in many ways you have set the benchmark. How difficult is it to achieve quality in India, and consistency?

That perception, I think, is going away. I don’t know if we are responsible for it. Maybe we are partly responsible for it, but we have built quality hotels that can compete with the best in the world. Unfortunately, business in the last two, two-and-a-half years has not been good, but this year has been exceptionally good. And since November, it’s been looking up. I met some people last night in the bar and they said that they couldn’t believe hotels like this exist. One lady said it’s the best in the world…I was a little embarrassed.

• But people always say that Indian tradition, Indian psychology, Indian habits, Indian indiscipline… it is very difficult to achieve this quality and then maintain it. What is your mantra?

The first is to build the right product. That needs a lot of thinking, then you get all your consultants together and you brainstorm and see you get the best product. The next is the staff. If the staff are no good, there is no good hotel. We select the staff very carefully, from all over India, we train them and we keep them motivated. Unless you keep them motivated, you can’t succeed. And I think we have achieved it. The secret is to keep it going.

• That is what I said…consistency. It’s like the Indian cricket team, one great innings and then it collapses.

I think you need a lot of attention. The right people who can supervise them, motivate them… and you can succeed. We have succeeded. Some of our resorts are ten years old, and our guests still say they are as good as they were when they were built…service wise.

• Well, the foreigners say these are hotels where you can drink water off the tap.

That’s very important. The food should be edible, and, of course, of good quality. The water should be potable; you should be able to drink it out of the tap… We Indians have two misconceptions. One is that the whole world wants to come and see India because it is a fantastic destination, from the beaches to the Himalayas. The other is that everybody wants to invest in India big, it is such a big market. Unfortunately, both are partly true. We live in a competitive world. We have to see that when they come here they get the best.

• We can’t just presume that since we have got this, all our job is done. We have to still do a lot.

Well, the mere fact that we get only two-and-a-half million tourists a year as opposed to China’s 25 million, rest of the southeast Asia… I think the figure for Thailand is about eight or nine million, Malaysia is same…so we have a long to go…

• But what is the toughest part? Is it fighting with regulations and controls in India, or is it maintaining quality in terms of Indian work standards?

I think controls are now less. Quality… you have to be at it… it is a 24 hour job…

• That’s why people talk of Indian Stretchable Time, of lights going off… things go wrong in India all the time…

Well, things go wrong, lights will go off (laughs)…we have our generators… and they come on within seconds.

• That story about Duke of Edinburgh and the blown fuse…in some ways we Indians have to do some introspection. We are not such perfectionists when it comes to running a business, we have a bit of a chalta hai attitude. Have you encountered it?

I encounter it all the time. People say to me — our executives and staff — Mr Oberoi, you are very demanding. So I always tell them we may not be able to attain perfection all the time. We must attempt to get at least 99 per cent. Otherwise we are mediocre. This is often discussed in the company. You have to be demanding.

• Have you had cases which have left you exasperated, frustrated…where you had to really push the envelope?

It happens everyday practically. Something goes wrong…the air conditioner is not working properly, somebody hasn’t taken care… Take gardens for example, I am very particular that our gardens should be perfect…if you don’t have the right person supervising, you will never get it.

• I believe your father, the Rai Bahadur, personally used to examine all the guests’ comments till his last days?

Yes, he used to go through each guest’s comments and write to everybody. Of course, now we can’t do that, we have so many hotels. It’s not possible. But if I get a letter, I always answer it.

• But Indian workmen — you get a lot of class, colour, character, but you don’t get quality…

I have this argument with our contractors who make furniture, who work on our buildings. They ask me, Mr Oberoi, why are you so demanding? So I tell them often, I don’t stay in the hotel, it is the customers who come and stay in the hotel, and they are demanding. And they pay good money, so they deserve the best.

• And once you do that, you find people respond?

They do respond. By and large, it is how you explain to them. And how you persist.

• So if you bring in leadership and discipline that demands consistency, Indians can deliver?

And I think the perception that Indians can’t deliver is changing very rapidly. Many companies in India, both MNCs and Indian, are beginning to be world class. Look at the IT industry…the automobile industry, I think people are realising that we have to be global. You have to be as good as the others.

• The old notion of Indians not trusting, if I may say, Indian underwear… Marks & Spencer’s is full of Indians, Arabs…This is woven into a third world work ethics. Do you see this changing?

It’s changing. I remember, many, many years ago, when I was a child…my mother bought some Japanese socks for me. And my father saw ‘‘Made in Japan’’… That was in 1940s. And he told her, why are you buying such rubbish. See where the Japanese are today…It took them 20-30 years. I think we can do it quicker.

• And the movement is in the right direction?

The movement is in the right direction.

• When did this change happen?

I think from 1991 onwards, we turned the corner. With liberalisation, and many companies thinking in global terms.

• Jaswant Singh said on this show that one of the problems in the Socialist age was people confused being rich with five-star culture. They were judgmental about five-star culture…and they forgot that five-star culture also stands for excellence.

That’s correct. Hotels have got a bad name…they are identified with the elite…

• …elite and effete, decadence…

But I have no doubt that things will change dramatically in the next ten years.

• And you think the arrival of Narasimha Rao and Manmohan Singh brought the change?

That was the turning point. And I think we have seen change in the last two years.

• But one area where we haven’t improved that much is tourism. This is quite shameful…

I think the travel and tourism industry hasn’t educated the government, the public, the media that it is an important industry… it gives employment to a large number of people.

• Do you think the government, the politician is capable of being educated?

I think so.

• So when our politicians say 2.7 million tourists, do they really know it is not 2.7 million tourists?

In my estimate, the real number of travellers coming to India is 2.7 million. It includes everyone.

• It includes the airline crew…

No, everyone except the airline crew…and I know bankers who come five or six times…

• So they are counted five or six times a year…

Yes…

• So, how many real tourists are there?

In my estimate not more than 450,000.

• You are the doyen of the hospitality industry in the country. Indians face the slug of being underperformers in many areas. It’s true in some areas, untrue in some. But in tourism it is correct. A country like India getting only 5 or 6 lakhs of genuine tourists, shame…

It is a shame. We haven’t publicised India… we haven’t done anything to promote India… the recent campaign on…

• The Incredible India campaign…

That’s well received… And as you must have read, we are the best, the tenth most favoured destination in the world. That’s a great achievement…

• But it’s not yet reflecting in number…

It will reflect in number in future, if we do it the right way. We have a long way to go, we can’t be complacent…

• I believe the industry and the government are combining in this campaign.

Yes, we are contributing; the government has said they will contribute equally…

• That means if you will put up a crore, they will put up a crore.

Yes… And I think if we can promote India better, clean up cities, get better airports, do something about visas, provide better access to India and out of India…and more airports within India. Our private airlines are now in a position to grow, I don’t see why Air India and Indian Airlines can’t get more aeroplanes… This has been hanging fire for several years.

• But do you think airports, visas…these are real constraints?

These are real constraints…

• And do people who come here, do they complain about this?

They complain about this…I met a lady the other day, she said she wanted to come on a particular day, she couldn’t. She had a change of holiday…

• If a million more tourists start to come to India, we won’t be able to get them in and get them out…

You go to Bangkok airport and see the number of people…here you will see half the number…

• Or Dubai…

Dubai, I am told, handles 15 million people a day. They expect to handle 51 million by 2015….just one airport.

• So airport itself becomes a revenue generator…

Of course, it is a big revenue generator. Look at the number of shops, the number of people who buy…

• This is so basic, why can’t we clean our airports? I believe you made an offer to maintain the toilets of Delhi airport?

We didn’t care for a long time, and when we did, they said they are going to privatise the airport, so there was no point in spending money.

• It would have been funny to have this really basic airport, with toilets maintained to Oberoi standards.

Well, I asked somebody, why this delay…because we had put up the proposal four years ago…They said there is a fear that there will be a big difference between the toilets and the airport.

• But civil aviation again, why can’t we provide more seats one way or the other?

Well, this is something that I have never understood. For a country as big as India, we need air transportation, probably the easiest…both for business and for pleasure… within India too, in the winter months if you want to go to Jaipur, you have to book a few weeks ahead.

• And each time this comes up, there’s the talk of saving the two national carriers which is something which I have ever understood. These are not Qutab Minar and Taj Mahal that you have to save. These are companies and they have to compete.

They should compete… and the best way to save the airlines is by allowing competition and not by restricting other airlines. And I have said this often, and this angers both Indian Airlines and Air India, you only improve if you have competition.

• We have allowed competition to come into every other area in which public sector was in the business, except in aviation.

Well, there may be some vested interests…you know more about these things than I do…

• But if a million more tourists came to India, that is less than 3 % of what China gets, what will it do for India’s economy?

We can earn billions of dollars more…

• How do tourists generate this kind of revenue?

First of all, they stay in hotels….taxis, buses, cars, shopping… shopping is a very big attraction in India…

• If a million more tourists come to India, what will it do to India’s artisans and handicrafts? Everybody wants a souvenir…

You see this city here, how many people are shopping around for handicrafts…

• Do you see a little change now…

There is indeed a big change in the government’s attitude. As I said earlier, it is all a question of educating them…

• But do you find that this lot of politicians, they are more willing to listen?

Fortunately for the industry, yes.

• I believe, even until 10 years before, even you couldn’t import anything. You couldn’t import the golf cart we were riding now.

Yes, now they have liberalised everything. And I hope that policy continues.

• Your father was a great visionary. I have heard this story about his fudging his age…did he?

Yes…even though everybody knew he was born in 1898, he said he was born in 1900. So, just before his hundredth birthday, he got a letter from Buckingham Palace congratulating him on his hundredth birthday. We didn’t know what to say to him, so when this letter came I said we have to celebrate your hundredth birthday.

• You are now 75. You are fitter than most of our politicians of that age… have you figured out your succession, a way of ensuring that the same commitment to quality will endure?

I have two people from the family who run the business. They are dedicated. One is my son and the other my nephew, the son of my late brother who I treat like my own son.

• It is unusual, a family business yet run professionally…

Yes, we are a professional company, except that my son and nephew don’t even get a salary from the company.

• So what is that you learnt from your father?

One thing is that don’t think about money. Money will come, you do the right thing.